Book+7+-+Canada


 * Discussion Dates:** Friday 15th March to Friday 29th March




 * Jane: Shivers, I am so sorry you guys for nominating such an uninspiring book. Maybe you can on-gift your copies at Christmas time or something?:)**

1. What would you rate this book out of 10 and why?

Jane: I would rate it a eight out of 10. It is epic... and it took me a while to get in to. But when I did I absolutely loved it, so sad, wise, thought-provoking. I read many paragraphs twice, just because they were so beautiful, meaningful and brilliant. I thought the themes were fascinating, the collapse of family, choice versus fate, the link to a sense of place (i.e. America vs Canada).

Michelle: Just letting you know that once again I am floundering around in the beginning third of the book unable to get into it....Hurry up and rob the bank already, the foreshadowing is irritating me. But Jane, if you give it an 8/10 I will persevere!

Jane: Hello lovely Michelle! I gave it an eight but I definitely don't think it will be everyone's cuppa. Life is too short to read a long book you don't enjoy. Jane. xx

Mel: I am almost half way through. Have read two books in the middle of the first half. I never do this, so clearly I am just not that into it... However, I concur with Michelle, if Jane really liked and appreciate it, I too will persevere, and hopefully write something constructive by the end of the week.

Lynne: I finished this book about 2 weeks ago and had I been asked to give it a rating back then it may have scored quite poorly, but it has been growing on me in recent days and I think I would give it 7/10. That's pretty good given that my comment to Mel when I was at page 168 was "I want my money back". So why a 7 instead of a 4....because, in Dell's own words, sometimes you should not look for deeper meaning in the things you read, but I did, and the deeper meanings came to me slowly without punching me in the face while I was mid-chapter. If you have not finished then I urge you to do so, and would suggest to Mel that we keep this discussion open longer so that more contributions can be made as this is a very though provoking book and the passage of time will make people's comments all the more interesting.

====Mel: Just read Lynne's comments (which I loved - maybe it is time for you to turn from exports to writing), and I am compelled to turn off lap top and open my book again... and yes, more than happy to extend the discussion date to **Friday 29th March**====


 * Cath: Like Lynne, when I finished the book I wasn't quite sure what I thought of it. It really is so original and yes 'epic' is also a good word. I also get the frustration some members are feeling with the whole lead up to the bank robbery. I still don't really know what I think about it, perhaps I will by Fri 29th March.**

Jaime - I loved this book and couldn't put it down. 9/10 for me. It was sombre and wise in a way that propelled me to the end. I needed know, hoped for the best and felt the weight of this story at every page. Having said that I finished this book such a long time ago I am not sure I can give it full justice with my comments today!

Mel 5/10. Maybe, like Lynne I should allow for a passage of time between finishing Canada and writing these posts. From my position having finally finished reading the book yesterday I have to say that I just didn't 'feel it'. I didn't dislike the book, but I certainly cannot see the magnificence in it that so many reviews allude to. Naturally I think that the problem is with me, and that I just didn't read deeply enough and allowed myself to be distracted by the going's on of life.

Michelle: I am with Mel, 5/10. I have just put the book down and maybe I need more time for this to sink in. But like Lynne's description below I feel it was like drifting through a lot of drizzle. Like drizzle, perhaps it will be more poignant with some distance. However, to quote one of the final sentences and much of the theme of the book 'Hidden meaning is all but absent". I am confused about whether to take this at face value or not and how deeply I should pay attention to the book. I am intrigued by the choice vs. fate theme though and would love to have that as a question. Dell is so fascinated by chess, and even has a moment on the bridge after visiting his parents in prison where he decides that life is not preordained and he has to make a move. Which he doesn't.

Lara: I finished the book a few days ago, but then have been travelling and I thought that the added time might make my comments better....I'm not so sure. I'd have to give it a 6 out of 10. I got into the book pretty quickly and kept reading it steadily (which appears to be notable considering the above comments). I thought it was quite well written, but it left me without strong emotions and I haven't been thinking of it a lot since I finished. In summary, I'm glad I read it and I thought it was interesting, but it wasn't a big favourite. Also - please don't think Minneapolis is all about Appleby's and trailer parks ;-).

Nell: Hey everyone, I am weighing in at the 11th hour (as always)...I haven't been able to get through the first half (I am like Mel, I have read other books in between). I like the writing, but I am not hooked yet! I will keep going though...

2. Do you think this work was worthy of a Pulitzer Prize winner? Why or why not?

Jane: I think it certainly has all the elements that make a Pulitzer Prize contender. Ford's prose is excellent there is no denying. And there are obviously deeper themes than what is obvious at a surface level. It did seem to me one of those 'great American novels' which is vast in scope with many layers.

Lynne: It didn't win a Pulitzer. His book "Independence Day" did (1996). Don't think I pulled that from my Pulitzer memory bank. I had to go to the website to see what other books have been winning Pulitzer's so I could answer this question!

Cath: I've started reading 'Independence Day' a couple of times and couldn't get into. Perhaps Richard Ford is an acquired taste.

Lara: I think so since it was undeniably well written as Jane says, and there were interesting themes throughout -- but I can see why this work didn't win the prize.

3. If you were to describe the rhythm of the book, what words would you use?

Lynne: Plodding in the first half which really annoyed me. In the 2nd half I found the rhythm slightly quickened but still far from a 'page turner' which is hard to stomach at 400+ pages. In meteorological terms I would say the first half was misty and the 2nd had some drizzle, not quite reaching the showers I was hoping for.

Cath: I'm not sure I could describe it's rhythm (although I like your meteorological analogy Lynne). It just seemed a vast and slow.

Mel: I found the rhythm to be quite halting, one step forward and two steps back. Especially in the first half. The second half moved a little faster but still plodded.

Michelle: Mel I agree. The foreshadowing made it feel like nothing happened in the right order.

Lara: It kind of felt like a long roadtrip...where there wasn't a lot going on....which is interesting since a robbery and murders should in theory be quite spectacular. It was muted and different shades of grey for me.

4. Who did you have more sympathy for? Bev or Neeva? Why?

Jane: I felt sympathy for both really. They both seemed trapped in lives that they hadn't really envisioned for themselves, both in terms of their relationship and careers. I felt it was interesting that Neeva was weak enough to go along with the robbery in the end but perhaps she saw it as a way out, or perhaps she thought life couldn't get any worse. Her choice was just another part of the greater meaning of the book - about the choices that humans make in life.

Lynne: Neither really, but it is difficult for me, a child of the 80's, to understand social norms in 1959 and what would have convinced these 2 that their course of action was acceptable when they had dependent children. Neeva seemed more 'world-wise' so I expected her to have the chutzpah to get out of there when her boneheaded husband came up with another bonehead idea. The personal weakness she refers to in her journal is a poor excuse. She had parents in the next state and should have headed in that direction __before__ she got embroiled in the robbery plans.

Cath: I found it hard to sympathise with either of them also. I too kept wondering where along the line did robbing a bank become a feasible course of action. I also don't think that either of them seemed to do enough to look after their children.

Jaime: I felt sympathy for them both actually. Ford telling us that the bank would be robbed meant that I knew that they were doomed from the beginning. Sometimes people make bad decisions because they feel it is the only choice - rightly or wrongly, I think that was how Bev and Neeva felt.

Mel: I think that they both made stupid choices but I had more sympathy for Neeva. Even though she was thoughtful and intelligent, women in 'those days' followed their husbands direction even when it led them into a mess. Her choices were limited and returning to her own parents would have involved a lot of shame.

Lara: Good question. Probably Neeva, but in reality both their stories were quite sad and rather frustrating. They both seemed to have a sort of impotence to truly change their situation and the bank robbery provided her with a type of excitement and a release, but she was incapable of fully considering the consequences on her children (and her life). I do think she, as well as Bev loved the kids. Did anyone else think that Bev was similar to the father in "The Glass Castle"?

Mel: Yes Lara! I thought that Bev reminded me of the father in The Glass Castle on many occasion. I had the same lanky tall frame in my mind. They both appeared to me to be flawed men, who loved their family but that love was not enough to keep them on the straight and narrow. The father from The Glass Castle was more extreme though - both in terms of his intelligence and his lifelong commitment to living outside the rules of the 'establishment'.

5.Do you think Dell should have reacted differently when his parents were imprisoned?

Jane: No, because I don't know how anyone of that age would react in that situation. It was as though he had no emotional response and it all felt quite distant from his actual reality. But I think that was in keeping with the style of the book which was rather understated - there were dramatic events, but they didn't seem as dramatic because of the semi-remote sort of writing style. It was as though everything was being viewed with some kind of filter so that events weren't so 'close' and horrifying. But then underneath all of that was the deeper themes contained within the novel.

Cath: No. I agree with Jane that the style of the book was restrained but I did think that Dell's reaction seemed to contain an underlying and deep sense of dread.

Jaime: No, not sure that there was a right way to behave in these circumstances.

Mel: I agree with the above points. His response did not seem out of place given the style of the book, nor did it seem out of character for him. I think he handled himself with far more maturity than a lot of kids his age.

6.Why do you think Berner left her brother?

Jane: I don't think she had the emotional capability to deal with any of the events that happened in the book. She seemed unstable and maybe her way of dealing with this instability was to just run away and forget real life/family/everything she had known.

Lynne: I was very surprised to learn that she literally walked away from her past, and then ironically she was never able to escape it. Perhaps she believed that she was more mature than Dell and would be better able to dictate the direction of her life without him. Seems she made some mistakes along the way but I don't think it would have been better for if she ended up in Canada with her brother.

Cath: I was also very surprised when she literally walked out of his life. I think they probably both made a wise choice in avoiding becoming wards of the state although I was surprised at how the authorities seemed to overlook them and they were just left to their own devices.

Jaime: Berner was self absorbed.

Mel: Berner is a very strange character and I'm not sure that her adult life would have been any less chaotic or fractured if the robbery had never taken place. I think that she was a depressed teenager. It was most disappointing that she just left her brother and didn't offer for him to come with her. I don't have a sibling, but it goes against what I thought siblings gave each other - support and comfort when the chips are down.

Lara: I found it hard to get Berner's character, but she was obviously the foil to Dell in that she shunned conventionality and didn't "go with the flow". Unfortunately, that didn't give her happiness either and life wasn't kind to her on so many levels. It is interesting to consider Ford's moral objective if there is one - i.e. acceptance, adaptability and perhaps a push for education?

7. Did you appreciate the foreshadowing or did it kill the suspense for you?

Jane: I appreciated it. It didn't kill the suspense. If it wasn't written in this way, it would be more a crime novel and would read in a totally different way. I felt Ford was trying to get deeper than that.

Lynne: It did kill the suspense for me and made me very impatient. I still think that he could have described the robbery first (or faster) and then elaborate on the events leading up to it after that - it would have been far less irritating to me and I would not have whinged to Mel about needing my money back. Interestingly, when I read the first page the first time I did not remember that he also foreshadowed "murders". I completely forgot about it until I flicked back through last week. Thank god otherwise I would have been doubly impatient and would probably have made an even more outrageous demand to our moderator.

Cath: I didn't think that there was any suspense to kill. I don't think suspense was the point.

Mel: the foreshadowing didn't really bother me. It allowed the reader to get to know the characters, especially Neeva and Bev, without being preoccupied by what they were planning to do. It also allowed for the pace of the book to pick up in the second half where there wasn't as much foreshadowing.

Michelle: I think it is what turns me off about this novel. I couldn't stand knowing what was going to happen, and knowing it was bad, and knowing it was coming to get him. And it not happening fast enough so I could see how he coped.

Lara: I think it contributed to the overall effect he was going for - long, plodding and a story more of the mind than the actions.

8. Did Dell’s narration keep you intrigued the entire running length of the story? Why or why not?

Jane: Yes, in fact it kicked into another gear in the second half (I felt).

Lynne: I struggled a bit with Dell. I expected more insight/wisdom in his re-telling of the story because he was telling as his older self, but he kept his descriptions really basic, like he was using his teenage voice. I also thought that he sounded more like a 12 year old than a 15 year old which I found distracting. He seemed too innocent, too compliant and obedient. I thought there would have been some rebellion in him, like Berner, but he just accepted every thing that happened to him. I guess that is what made him quite a unique voice and what allows the big themes in the book to evolve rather than be spruiked.

Mel: I liked and felt for Dell but totally agree with Lynne that he came across as 12 rather than 15. 15 year old boys tend to view themselves and often look like men. Dell was still a compliant little boy.

9. What frightened you most about Dell’s life? His circumstances or the people he was around?

Jane: Both, although I admired the fact that he was so strong and seemingly unemotional - he could have easily gone down a different, more dangerous, more damaging path, but he didn't.

Lynne: Agree, despite his naivety he survived a very frightening period. Amazing that the robbery and the murders occurred within months of each. Most other kids subjeccted to that would still be in therapy.

Cath: I found the people around him very threatening. I always felt that he was on the edge of danger. And he was so vulnerable and unprotected. So I think it was both his circumstances and the people around him that were a bit frightening.

Mel: Generally speaking his circumstances, although that Charley character made me feel very uneasy. Interesting as he seemed the most menacing, yet he never actually harmed Dell in any way.

10. Why does Ford set Part I in the U.S. and Part II in Canada? Does this say something about Dell’s crossing from innocence to experience? Does it speak to the relationship between the two countries?

Jane: I am pretty sure it points to both. There is definitely a lot of mention of the America/Canada thing (which I could relate to as it is similar to Australia and New Zealand's relationship). I felt Ford was pinning Canada has a place of refuge and tolerance.

Cath: For some reason I just love the word 'Canada'. So I think it is a great title for a book (so not answering the question though).

Jaime: I am not sure if it is a reference to the relationship between the two countries but I do think the second half of the book being set so far away from Dell's home, in a place that was across a border, in the remote wilderness was a literal way of depicting the internal changes from his past to his future. I think that when you have a great tragedy in life you look back on how it was before and it seems like a different world, with Dell we made this crossing into his future, where everything looked and was so different.

11. Does the author spoil the novel by revealing the robbery in the first paragraph?

Jane: No, I don't think so. It made it more interesting to me, because you see a sort of unravelling of a person, a family, morals, values and beliefs.

Lynne: Yes, spoiled for me. I didn't like the faux suspense, I just wanted to get it over and done with and then start dealing with the consequences. It is quite clever though the way Ford slows it all down (the whole way through) so you are forced to think more deeply about the events because each little step toward disaster is described so completely.

Cath: I didn't think it spoiled the novel at all because I don't think the point of the story was to fill the reader with suspense. I think the point was, like Jane has said, to sketch the downfall of two intelligent, thirty something middle american people.

Jaime: No, for me it made the details of the families life prior to the robbery more poignant.

Mel: no it doesn't spoil the novel, and anyway only half of the 'action' of the book is set around the robbery. The second half is leading up to the murders which is not foreshadowed as much.

12. How do Dell and Berner cope with their family’s isolation? How do you account for the differences in their coping mechanisms?

Jane: I think Dell and Berner just have completely different personalities... like many siblings. Dell is the strong and quietly confident type, Berner is emotional, unstable.

Lynne: Dell accepts it and goes about forgetting it, Berner hangs onto it too closely and it destroys her in the end. She keeps talking about her 'real' life starting soon and she missed the opportunity to "live" despite her parents BIG mistake. I guess Jane is right.

Cath: Dell had such a strong desire to go to school. I really really wanted this for him too. But the opportunities kept slipping out of his grasp. I found this very poignant.

13. Why does Ford have Dell and Berner engage in an incestuous act? What does that add to the novel?

Jane: I actually don't know. I was shocked when this happened. Perhaps he was trying to demonstrate how desperate people can be for some kind of human comfort and closeness when everything they know has been lost. I actually just listened to an interview with Richard Ford, who actually doesn't think of this 'intimate' act as incestuous.

Lynne: I had to read it twice to see if what I thought had happened //actually// happened. I think it gave me more of an insight into Berner's personality and that she might be prone to some recklessness (perhaps a trait she picked up from her father) and it was an early indicator of Dells' compliant nature.

Cath: I wasn't shocked but more confused. Like Lynne I had to make sure I got it right and then I wondered to myself "Why does Ford have Dell and Berner engage in an incestuous act? What does it add to the novel?" Thanks Jane and Lynne for enlightening me somewhat.

Jaime: I was shocked and confused - why, why, why? I admit to feeling relieved when it was not dwelled on and would prefer it if it never happened!

Mel: Being an only child and growing up addicted to Flowers in the Attic I had always wondered as a youngster if there wasn't more of this sibling bed jumping going on, and if the repulsion on brothers and sisters faces at the mere thought of intimate relations with their siblings was a big conspiracy to keep the truth at bay.... I am only half joking..... I read this question before I read the passage in the book, so I was very much looking out for it. Lynne's summation about Berner's recklessness and Dell's complicity rings true to me. It is an awkward subject matter, and like Jaime I am pleased that it only occupied such a small passage of the book.

Michelle: This was odd. But in some ways I felt relieved about it, as I was so worried Dell was going to be molested in Canada and his innocence shattered, and then I would think, hang on, he's already done much worse and been fine about it.

14. Last, consider the ending of the novel. How does Dell reconcile his feelings about his family history?

Jane: I don't think there is real reconciliation, but I think there is a sense of acceptance that the story of his life contributes to what he has become, that all things happen for some kind of bigger reason.

Lynne: I think Dell did finally reconcile his feelings about his family. He demonstrated the importance of letting go of the past so you can still continue into the future. He mentioned that life changing events can sometimes be overlooked because of their ordinariness and I think this helped him put the robbery and murders into perspective (and therefore not impact on him too heavily). I'll have even more to say on this question after a good night's sleep - so see you tomorrow.

Mel: Dell mentions a couple of times at the end of the book that he 'married the right woman'. In creating a new family (even though they never had children) he was able to let go of his own first family and the difficulties that they put him through. Dell had the resilience to forge a new life for himself free from the shackles of the past while Berner did not.

Michelle: Dell asks his class if they have ever felt like they escaped being punished. And somehow through this story I feel like Dell has escaped - whether it's actually "punishment" or any kind of trauma about the robbery, arrests, murder, incest, any kind of concern about his sister. The extraordinary events of his life seem not to have had a deep impression on him, although perhaps that's just the detached narrative.

Michelle: Haha! I keep looking at that photo and thinking it's a photo of the Dad, Bev, in the book. Lynne: I reckon more like my mental picture of Arthur Remlinger with his blonde hair and studious looks. Cath: He was a guest on Q&A (which given this is an international bookclub I should explain is an Australian TV panel discussion show) which others may have seen. He seemed to me a left wing small 'l' liberal type, a 'softer' sort of man.
 * BY THE WAY - HAVE YOU SEEN RICHARD FORD?? He looks like Clint Eastwood. **