Book+11+-+The+Woman+Upstairs


 * Discussion Dates: Friday 11th October to Friday 25th October**



1. What would you rate this book out of 10? Why? Genevieve: 7/10. I thought the ideas in it were interesting but I thought the way it was done was a bit contrived, as in the story had been created to discuss the Big Ideas but the story itself was a bit dull.

Jane: 6/10. I loved the idea of it at the beginning and I felt that I could relate in some small way to Nora at the start. I loved that the author was attempting to write about the idea that there are single women in their 30s and 40s who have a need to grasp on to anyone or anything to get a sense of belonging, or a need to feel that sense of family when they might not have children of their own. I also liked the idea of art kind of being a character of the story in itself. While these ideas were great in theory, the way the story unfolded was a little too obvious for my liking.

Sharyn: 7.5/10. I really enjoyed this book. I thought that Nora's voice was refreshing, honest, confronting and thought provoking. I thought some of the passages at the beginning of the book were brilliant - like when Nora talked about being a 'good girl', the difference between her 'authentic' self and her 'public' self, how men put their desires above all else and how turning 37 is a 'time of reckoning, the time at which you have to acknowledge once and for all that your life has a shape and a horizon'. I was hooked right from the start. The second part of the book wasn't as compelling and I agree that the story unfolded in a very obvious way. I will definitely try and read Claire Messud's other highly regarded book, The Emperor's Children.

Mel: Just popping in to say that I am half way through the book. Gen, Jane and Sharyn - I have really enjoyed reading your comments and they mirror much of what I have been thinking as I have read the first half. I furiously highlighted the passage about turning 37 being a time of reckoning. Felt like it was written just for me as I am really pushing myself in lots of ways this year, fearful perhaps that the years are starting to race by at break neck speed. I am enjoying Nora's observations of those around her - her boss, her Dad and her Aunty Baby, and her understanding of her own failures. Anyway, I will be back after I have finished reading with more to say of substance.

Sharyn: Yes Mel, the reference to our age (37) as a time of reckoning almost propelled me into a mid life crisis!

Amy: 6/10. Having read several reviews I had high expectations. As has been mentioned I was a little disappointed with the contrived nature of the second half of the book. However, I did enjoy Nora's narrative and felt I could relate to her in many ways; being the 'good girl', the difference between my authentic and public self, allowing dreams of being an artist (musician) slip away due to life's realities and the frustration that creates, single in my 30's without a family and the associated feelings of isolation.

Mel: Yes Amy, I actually thought of you in terms of Nora and her dreams of being an artist.

Lara: 7/10. I liked that it highlighted the voice and perspective of the single older woman which often gets overlooked in society. I thought it did a good job of setting the scene (her background, career journey, etc.), describing her feelings (both love and anger) and making the reader think about women in their lives who could be considered the "women upstairs". Also, you know you've met women and men like the Shahids - people who are a bit mesmerising, but then turn out not to be as solid or at least as ideal as you had once thought. I didn't like that I could see the ending early on and I felt that it was a bit forced in parts. However, I was engaged the whole time and have recommended it to at least one person.

Mel: 7.5/10 amazing! We seem to have reached consensus. Like you all, I like the premise and a number of things that Nora thinks and feels touches a nerve with me - but it does fall a way a bit at the end and become rather predictable. What is interesting, is that, as a woman - whether married and a mum or not - there is something in Nora's dismay at the state of her life that we can all seem to relate to. I quite like the writing and remained engaged even though it was often after 11pm by the time I picked the book up to have a read at the end of a long day.

Jaime: 7.5/10 - sorry for being late y'all. This book kept my attention for the most part but I found it lacking in authenticity at times. Nora's voice was really interesting and quite unique. I enjoyed her anger and finding myself now single, without kids and 37, I understand how she could feel so bitter. I think this age is a time when life has battered most people around a little and you choose to find a path of acceptance and fulfillment or become one of those bitter, angry single older women that I am sure we have all encountered along the way. This is not to say that men or women who have husbands and kids cannot become bitter at the path not taken, they can but this is perceived to be more of a childless single woman phenomenon I think. I like Nora's anger because at least she wasn't just passive, it gave me hope for her in the beginning.

Michelle: 7.5/10 I am joining this conversation right at the last minute - but I have to agree with nearly every point you have all already made. There were many paragraphs in the beginning that I wanted to underline, and say 'yes yes!!'. I am torn between deciding whether it is better that a book has a unique voice, or a compelling narrative… maybe I should rank it higher as I think it is more rare that a book can capture a unique insight, and interestingly one that so many of us can relate to.

2. Can you, in any way identify with Nora’s anger? As a woman? As a woman in her 30’s/40’s?

Genevieve: I can identify with the way that you have an idea of what your life will be like, that when you are a young girl you are told you can 'be anything', which then gets whittled down as you go through life and have changing priorities.

Jane: Yes, Genevieve (I LOVE YOUR THOUGHTS BY THE WAY), I totally agree. I think it is really interesting that you have ideas of what your life might be like at particular age stages, but fate or circumstances or events beyond your control change that. I definitely identified with Nora in the way she sort of feels alone in the world despite outward appearances, mostly, I think, because she does not have children. She suffers because of her hopes of being an artist have dwindled as practicalities of life got in the way, but I believe she suffers more from the fact she does not have family of her own. I cannot identify with her anger, because I believe you have to be philosophical about your own life path - either deal with it without dwelling on the past or be bitterly unhappy.

Sharyn: I ditto the sentiments of Gen and Jane. At the start of the book, Nora talks about woman being brainwashed from birth into being nice and dutiful daughters/friends/colleagues and this really resonated with me. We talked about this when we reviewed 'Lean In' but I kind of regret downplaying my talents and natural ambition so that I am more palatable and likeable. There was one sentence in the book that I flagged at the time because I thought it was so true: 'Men have figured out how to spawn children and leave them to others to raise, how to placate their mothers with a mere phone call from afar, how to insist, as calmly as if insisting that the sun is in the sky, as if any other possibility were madness, that their work, of all things, is what must - and must first - be done'. That's just so true!! I can also identify with the feeling that, by your late 30s, if you haven't achieved some of your dreams or are not in the process of pursuing them then you are unlikely to ever do so.

Amy: As mentioned above yes I can identify with Nora's anger on several levels but as Jane so aptly put if you don't adopt a philosophical mindset, you'll end up bitterly unhappy. I thought Nora's navel gazing became a bit pathetic towards the end and I wanted to tell her to just get on with it and find her own joy!! I guess overall it makes me think about how I would like to raise my daughter. How I might encourage her to be authentic, pursue her dreams, find joy but understand the competing demands and realities of life.

Mel: I don't identify so much with the anger, but I do on occasions with the sense of entrapment in your own life. Waking up in the morning (or to a crying child in the middle of the night) and thinking how did I get here? When do I get to do the things I dreamt of when I was younger?

Jaime: I don't identify with the anger but as an emotion I think anger is positive if it generates change. Anger unresolved is the ugliest kind of bitterness. In Nora's angry tirade in the first chapter some of her observations did resonate for me but some felt off the mark. Her thoughts on men being myopic and seeing everyone and everything else as expendable or less than yourself seemed unfairly squared at men in my mind and made her sound slightly like a 'man hater'. This trait does exist in men and women, and perhaps more often in men but Sirena also personified this

Michelle: All I can really say is that I AGREE! All your comments are spot on. Although I think the compelling part of the book was that Nora was so believable, and her anger so deeply hidden that it does make me wonder how many more 'women upstairs' I have passed by blithely assuming they are fine.

3. Why is Nora so drawn to each of the Shahids? What do they seem to offer her, and how do her memories inform her attraction to them?

Genevieve: They each represent something different, the child she never had, the artist she never was, the intellectual she never could express.

Sharyn: Gen's knocked it on the head. She was also attracted to their foreignness because she had grown up in a white cookie cutter world and yet was curious about the world outside the US and different cultures.

Genevieve: Good point Sharyn. Your comment reminded me that I thought as I was reading that their 'foreigness' was a bit forced eg the bullying to make te point about the insularity of America v the world.

4. What does Nora mean when she describes herself as “the woman upstairs”? What are the chief attributes of this archetype?

Genevieve: the idea of the madwoman in the belfry like in Jane Eyre.

Jane: The forgotten woman who no one cares about.

Sharyn: Someone who is perceived not to be interesting enough to really get to know.

Lara: The woman that everyone knows they can rely on, who won't kick up a fuss, but who is never really empathised with or thought about deeply by the majority of people.

Michelle: I feel the writer has been so insightful to be able to identify someone so forgotten by everyone else.

5. Nora asks, “//How did all that revolutionary talk of the seventies land us in place where being female means playing dumb and looking good?” (p. 4).// In what ways can //The Woman Upstairs// be read as a feminist novel? Which aspects of women’s experience does the novel illuminate?

Genevieve: I think the idea of the empowerment of woman as an ideal which has then turned into the overt sexualisation of women is an interesting one to explore and talk about, not sure that the book really does that though, as in she is a well respected teacher who does not seem to be judged by others for being dumb or for not looking good.

Jane: I think that the novel was trying to be more than it was. I do not think it was making any great statement as a feminist novel. In fact, I might argue the opposite - the fact that Nora is portrayed as a bitter and twisted women who needs a family is not a feminist view in my book.

Gen: good point Jane.

Sharyn: The female characters in the book were stronger than the male characters and in that sense it could be read as a feminist novel. Sirena was a strong character and demonstrated the behaviour, ambition and selfishness that Nora attributed to men in the opening chapter - putting her work first, leaving others to care for her child and having the ability to influence and get others to do what she wanted them to do. Nora was a well respected teacher keen on pursuing her passion in life. Towards the end of the book we find out that it was Nora's mother who called the shots in their family and controlled everything in her life. Even the school principal was a woman. None of these characters were defined by their looks and they didn't play dumb.

Jaime: Sharyn I just wrote something very similar about Sirena in a previous question, I totally agree. I am not sure that this book to be a feminist novel apart from there being many women in it - Nora really longs for a 'traditional' family unit and this insecurity leads her to have sex with Skandar, betraying her friend Sirena.

6. As he walks her home one night, Skandar tells Nora, “You don’t look like a ravenous wolf,” to which Nora replies, “Well, I am. . . . I’m starving” (p. 161). What is Nora so hungry for? Where does her hunger—her longing and desire—come from?

Genevieve: Her unfulfilled dreams of what she could achieve.

Jane: Urgh, this sentence is so contrived I cannot even comment.

Gen: you are funny Jane! Totally agree.

Sharyn: Yes, it's the kind of line you would expect from Fifty Shades of Grey! She was hungry because no-one saw or understood who she really was.

Lara: It was a cringeworthy exchange, but I feel like when you are "caught up in the moment" you might actually allow yourself to say this and then feel a prick of corniness even then. Nora is still yearning for her ideal of who she thinks she should have been. The Shahids seem to validate that ideal and make it a reality.

Jaime: I agree that this sentence is contrived but funnily I could imagine Skandar saying it. He was so besotted with his own reflection from Nora's adoring eyes that it seemed to be exactly the falsely intimate statement he might make.

Michelle: Hah Jane!

7. Nora understands that “the great dilemma” of her mother’s life “had been to glimpse freedom too late, at too high a price” (p. 40). Does Nora reenact her mother’s failed ambitions or go beyond them? Why did Nora give up the artist’s life and become first a management consultant and then an elementary school teacher?

Jane: Probably just practicality. Money rules the world, and artists or many working in the creative arts simply do not make enough money to survive (or lead a certain lifestyle they aspire to).

Michelle: I don't really understand why the management consultant part was in the book. So Nora had already ditched in a 'life' (work/boyfriend/city) already to rebuild it and become a school teacher, and still wasn't happy? It confused the whole premise of the book, and makes Nora sound like a melodramatic person, rather than someone who has wandered along passively.

8. The ending of //The Woman Upstairs// delivers a tremendous shock to Nora and to the reader. Were there hints and warnings that a betrayal was coming? Why wasn’t Nora more wary of her involvement with the Shahids? What may have motivated Sirena to treat Nora as she does?

Genevieve: yes there were hints. I found Sirena to be vacuous and kind of creepy and I guess she thought she could use Nora for her own ends as she knew how Nora felt about her.

Jane: Yep, I thought it was pretty predictable. That is why I do not think the book lived up to my expectation. Ideas were great, but the author did not quite pull it off.

Sharyn: It was obvious right from the start (or at least when they failed to thank Nora for looking after Reza when he was hurt) that Sirena and Skandar were selfish and self-absorbed people who used others. Sirena in particular was very adept at getting what she wanted from others. I found it frustrating that Nora had a crush on Skandar when all he did was use her as someone who would hang on his every word and bolster his fragile ego.

Jaime: Yes, I saw it coming. The Shahids saw Nora as expendable, incidental and useful.

Michelle: Although the ending was predictable and unfortunately didn't fulfil the promise of the first half of the book, isn't Nora's treatment by the Shahids exactly what happens all the time to The Woman Upstairs? Being used whilst they are useful and discarded when they are not?

9. Early in the novel, Nora writes: “I’m not crazy. Angry, yes; crazy, no” (p. 5). But later she suggests that if someone else told her story to her, she’d conclude they were either crazy or a child. How is the reader to understand her mental and emotional state?

Genevieve: it was sometimes difficult to determine how truthful Nora's versions of events were.

Sharyn: I don't think that she was crazy at all. She was just angry, lonely and fed up. At times I found her navel gazing a bit indulgent and wanted to tell her to get on with it. When her friend Didi told her that she was in her prime and that she had to want something, I wanted to cheer. I think she needed more than a three week trip overseas - she needed a fresh start somewhere else.

Lara: Yes - I agree that Didi was refreshing - wish they had hung out more! I also thought that hearing her father's perspective on her mother was illuminating and a good example of how everyone has their truth.

Mel: No note crazy, but in a hole that she did not know how to climb out of

Jaime: I think life was beating her down - she was vulnerable.

10. After visiting Sirena’s Wonderland exhibit in Paris, Nora writes: “How could I begin to explain what it meant. . . the great rippling outrage of what it meant—about each of us, about myself perhaps most of all, about the lies I’d persistently told myself these many years” (p. 252). What //does// the betrayal Nora suffers mean for each of them? What lies has she told herself?

Genevieve: I couldn't help but feel that it was really Nora's fault though that it all happened; yes it was a betrayal by Sirena but she didn't make Nora do it, she just used it after the fact.

Jane: I thought it was a pretty shite thing to do, but I think many people do things without thinking about the consequences of their actions, the feelings of others, and the ripple effect of their actions. However, the friendship was fairly false and strange anyway, both ladies used each other and it was an odd relationship all around.

11. It becomes clear by the end of the novel that Sirena was using Nora. Is Nora purely a victim of Sirena’s ruthlessness? To what extent does Nora make herself vulnerable to such humiliation? Was she also using Sirena for her own purposes?

Genevieve: yes she was using Sirena as a projection for what she wanted her life to be.

Jane: As above, strange relationship all around and I thought Nora was fairly ignorant for not seeing it earlier (especially when the reader could see it coming from about midway through the book).

Lara: It was almost like for awhile it was win-win as although both were being used, they were both getting something out of it, so it was ok. Then this goes beyond every line...but remember Nora did cheat with Skandar - I don't think she could ever really be called a complete victim. Did anyone else note that just her video was soldout? Not sure I'd want it in my living room!

12. Is there anything else you would like to say or ask about "The Woman Upstairs" that has not been addressed in the questions above?

Genevieve: while I liked the book to some extent I found it a bit emotionally distancing and therefore hard to really engage with the characters in a real way.

Mel: A couple of things: 1) I just couldn't get it through my head that it was set in the States. I kept seeing London in every scene, and Nora seemed very British to me. 2) As well as the passage about being 37 that leapt out at me there is another passage - about living away that also spoke to me. All of us (or nearly all of us) are or have lived away from where we were brought up and I wonder if anyone else picked up on it. "But do you know this idea of the imaginary homeland? Once you set out from shore on your little boat, once you embark, you'll never truly be at home again. What you've left behind exists only in your memory, and your ideal place becomes some strange imaginer concoction of all you've left behind at every stop". The way I feel about Australia is very similar. Both Amy and Sharyn talk with fondness about one day returning to Melbourne - but increasingly I feel an emptiness at the thought - although where I want to be doesn't actually exist - it is a blend of the very best of the past. 3) Siena was a pretty rubbish mum. Nora seemed to be either with Raza or with Siena - so when was Siena with Raza? Yes, I'm judging.

Sharyn: Following on from Mel's comments: 2) I do remember that passage, Mel. I didn't realise that you felt increasingly ambivalent about returning to Melbourne. I had planned on our kids growing up together! While I long to return to Melbourne, I am increasingly worried that it won't live up to my expectations / memories, just as that passage suggests. I also worry about being a fish out of water in my own home town and starting all over again. I suspect it's a case of the grass is always greener on the other side. 3) What I thought was interesting was that Nora judged Sirena for outsourcing the child minding in order to pursue her artistry, despite the fact that Nora spent so much time in the book talking about the importance of following your dreams and commenting on the ability of men to shirk such responsibility. Interestingly, she never judged Skander for the time he spent away from the family pursuing his career. 4) Like many of you, I wish that Nora had a higher self esteem.

Jaime: It breaks my heart a bit to read what you wrote about Melbourne Mel. I have been back just under a year and the Melbourne I knew is still very much here. Having said that I also get it. Fondness for places might be more about people and circumstance and that has certainly changed in my absence. I have had to start over here but my full passports make me appreciate this city more than I ever have before. I cannot tell you how many times I have said "I feel so lucky to live here in Melbourne/Australia" since I have been back. Someday we'll all be together once more... right?

Amy: Jaime, so great you're enjoying being back home and love reading your insightful comments! Mezza, I also noted this passage and very much identified with it. Similar to you, I think my ideal place of settlement doesn't exist. However when it comes down to it, I think the Australian lifestyle is pretty hard to match. At this stage though, I'd still jump ship to Sing for a couple of years in a heart beat. xx

Mel: I think that my biggest problem is that I have to spend far too much time at my in-laws when I am in Melbourne. Seriously - if Narre Warren East had become your major point of reference for your homeland, you would probably want to stay away too!! And don't get me started on the politics - and the fact that our countrymen and woman actually voted in this hideous Liberal government is another reason to remain on the outside looking in for a while longer. And yes Sharyn, I totally want Jack and Marcus to grow up together too - but I would be just as content for that to be in Asia as in Australia....... Having said ALL that we will go 'home'/ are planning to return 'home' at some point. Michelle - if you are reading this I would LOVE to know your thoughts. And Lara, you have been away from the US for so many years now. Where is home for you? Do you think you daughters will grow up feeling British or Amercian? Does it matter to you? An interesting read is a recent book by Nikki Gemmell (of a Bride Stripped Bare fame) called "A letter to my children - why you are Australian". It basically charts her decision to leave London after close to 20 years and return with her family to Australia We have digressed but that is great!!

Michelle: Mel, I completely agree and I did note that part in the book (one of my 'yes yes!' moments). I have to say, I don't feel that 'home' exists anymore so I really try to enjoy where I am, rather than look back or look forward, although you are right, I know I will end up in Australia, it's just a matter of when. It probably helps that San Francisco has blue skies, gum trees, easy going attitudes etc. I don't really have a problem with my children growing up as Americans, but I do wonder if they will also feel 'homeless' when they are eventually uprooted, and feel guilty already for doing that to them. And yes, weirdly you are right, the book didn't feel like it was set in America at all… maybe the fact that they walked everywhere... seriously, if she's American why doesn't she just drive?!! Sharyn, I loved a lot of your comments and point 3 above is so true. Finally, I just wanted to say how much I loved the part about your authentic and public self: "It doesn’t ever occur to you, as you fashion your mask so carefully, that it will grow into your skin and graft itself, come to seem irremovable.”. I am so glad I read this book for this part alone. Is 37 too late to try to take it off? It was for Nora - which is really the disappointment of this book. I wish she'd emerged as a different person at the end, I thought the rage was going somewhere. Unfortunately the author went for the 'realistic' ending, which is probably why so many of us didn't like it!!