Book+17+-+The+Narrow+Road+to+the+Deep+North

Discussion Dates: Friday 24rd October to Friday 7th November



1) What would you rate this book out of 10? Do you agree with the Booker Prize Chair A. C Greyling that the book is a ‘masterpiece’?

Mel - I rate this book 9/10. It is a masterful account of life on the Thai/Burma railway but also so much more than that. Dorrigo Evans was a wonderfully complex and compelling character, and I was interested in him at every stage of his life. I found that the Japanese characters and the Korean guard gave the book an extra layer of depth and significance. Yes it was horrendous and sad and frightening to read about life and death on the railway, but I was left more with the hope and resilience of the human spirit than despair at what we can do to one another. I will discuss my reason for giving 9/10 rather than 10/10 more in question 3 - but basically I would have liked to have met the Japanese commander before the war to fill in out fully, as we spend quite a bit of time with him after the war, rather than the intense focus given to Dorrigo's and Amy's relationship.

Lara: 9/10. I was going to put 8, but when I reflect on it, the quality of the writing and craftsmanship is so superior to some of the other books that I've given 7 or 8, that I have to say 9. I've been recommending this book to many even before I finished last Friday. It's about a tough subject, but one that is so important and not as well known as many other areas of WW2 (at least certainly for Americans). The main character was full of flaws, and yet I still cared and wanted to know what happened to him - perhaps because of his outward heroism and inner struggle. For me a marker of a good book is one that makes me think, compels me to finish, and keeps me reflecting on it and humanity long after I read that last page. This did it for me.

Rachel: 10/10 I felt Flanagan's editor could have done a better of job of maybe cutting out some of the superfluous 'subplots' - still not convinced by the need for the whole bush fire escape at the end - but NOTHING could detract from the sheer brilliance of this book. It does everything a book should do and most importantly for me, it gives a narrative to a horrendous moment in history that deserves to be heard. I am so horrified by some of the accounts given that I felt compelled to do additional research of my own and understand more fully. Flanagan has given a voice to those who deserved to be remembered and for that reason alone this book is a 'masterpiece'.

Jane: I give it a strong 8/10. Excellent depiction of an important part of history, incredible attention to detail, incredible writing. But I agree with Rachel... I felt a couple of the subplots were completely superfluous (particularly the bush fire) and it for this reason it doesn't get a nine or a 10.

Lynne: Like Lara, I'm going for 9/10. It contained some truly amazing writing. It was harrowing and hard work, but that is more a reflection of me (and my comparatively pampered peace-time up-bringing) than the book. It was heart-felt and heart-wrenching. It was raw and human and poetic and honest and I loved it - when I finally got through it. It forced me to think long and hard about life, death, war, and the truths of war. That this book made me //think// at all was a welcome change to some of the crap I endure just feed my voracious habit! It has taken me a while to get around to writing my thoughts on this book because they are difficult to express without sounding a bit overwrought. I'm tempted to get all flowery and deep but I think that would be disrespectful to the purpose of this book. It is not nearly as melodramatic as some of my mental discussions have been. I encouraged my husband to read it so we could talk about it, and voicing some of my opinions to him forced me to temper my language. After stepping away from the experience (because at times it did feel like an 'experience', going to bed each night and knowing that I had to return to the trail) I have got a bit more perspective. This is an amazing description of a time in history that is dripping with cruelty and Flanagan somehow made a beautiful story from it. Masterpiece? Probably, one of many, but still right up there.

Mel: And what would Shags give it out of 10 Lynne?

Jane: Jeepers, ladies, you should all be writers with these thoughtful and evocative descriptions. Beaut.

Lynne: I'll ask him, but I'm afraid he might gate-crash our book club with his thoughts. Imagine that, a rooster in the hen house!

Sharyn: 8/10. It seems pointless commenting on the book now after all your comprehensive and insightful comments! This is clearly a heavyweight novel about a serious and important topic with beautiful, evocative writing and memorable passages. I feel like I didn't get as much out of it as I should have because I was a bit distracted while reading it and I intend to re-read it as a result. While the book is (probably) a masterpiece, I took two points off for the reasons set out in question 3.

2) Dorrigo Evans is a study in contrasts. What sort of character do you find him? In light of what you learn about his time as a POW do you forgive him his indiscretions?

Lara: I don't know if "forgive" is the right world, but I think you can understand them more - in particular when you find out the full story of him and Amy (and him and Ella). It was sad in so many ways - life/love isn't fair - and the book was better because it didn't end in a sweet little loop. He was strong in so many ways and couldn't give himself credit for it. I think many people have this concept of themselves as a weak or unworthy person, but if you look at even the fact that he overcame his instincts so often, that alone speaks volumes. I wouldn't have wanted to be married to him, but as a character, he was so much more interesting that the stereotypical hero. I just thought now --> Interesting that the Goldfinch also centred around another non-stereotypical hero. I found Dorrigo much more compelling, deeper, and I cared more about him.

Rachel: I agree with Lara - Evans is our 'antihero' almost in his desire to rebuke the 'hero' status forced upon him. He is clearly uncomfortable and disgusted almost with the public 'Dorrigo', the man everyone wants to reduce him to, needs him to be. I felt it was very relevant with today's war 'heroes' and reports of soldiers with survivor guilt who shun the medals they are awarded because they feel undeserving of them. Dorrigo acted like a hero to his men and was in fact a hero but how could he ever feel truly heroic when he witnessed so many men die in his hands unable to do anything about it. Again, I love your use of the word 'compelling' Lara, I felt exactly the same way about him as a character.

Mel: Yes an antihero indeed. Dorrigo was clearly embarrassed to be considered a hero, but yet on the public face of it his civilian life was also dedicated to the good of others, including his family when he rescued them from the fire. I was not in the least emotionally affected by his affairs - in that the affairs in no way changed my opinion of him. Did others think lesser of him for being a philanderer or do we forgive him his trespasses due to the greater good that he did for so many? It is not surprising that it was only in perform risky surgery that he truly felt alive after the war.

Jane: I am interested in the survivor guilt that soldiers seem to experience. And perhaps it is not only survivor guilt but a mere human need to forget or not talk about or not acknowledge everything that happened because it is too horrific. My own grandfather committed suicide after the war and it is for this reason that I found the characters in the book particularly compelling. The aftermath of war is almost an unspoken horror and I can't even imagine all the soldiers RIGHT NOW languishing, suffering after returning from active service. I have a letter that my grandfather sent while at war and nothing is overtly expressed about the horror of it all, but if you read between the lines... Anyway, I haven't answered the question. But yes, I do forgive him his indiscretions, which is odd since i am usually fairly black and white about the notion of affairs.

Lynne: I kept asking myself throughout this book, why do I like Dorrigo so much? How clever of Flanagan to write a character that is so full of obvious flaws that is still so admirable / likeable. The stark contrast between his public and private persona was attributed to his war experience and I am sure he was not alone among veterans that return but keep something of themselves hidden away, protected, sheltered. I easily forgave him for his indiscretions and partly blame his wife for it too. She seemed to pigeon-hole him when they met and didn't bother to get to know the real Dorrigo before he left for war, and was happy to 'keep up appearances' after. I wonder if Dorrigo was even capable of revealing his true self to Ella though... Anyway, he was a good soldier, but not a great husband.

Sharyn: It's interesting that many of you found Dorrigo to be a compelling character. I found Dorrigo too much of an enigma to be able to emotionally invest in him. Despite his love of poetry and infatuation with Amy, I thought he was emotionally unavailable and lacking in passion, even before the events of the war. Did I think less of him for being a philanderer? No, because his professional achievements overshadowed that. It's strange how people who achieve great things have flawed personal lives - it's almost as though the commitment and morality they demonstrate in their professional lives is so all-consuming that they can't keep it up in their private lives. In that vein, I always found it interesting that (even by his own account) Nelson Mandela was such a flawed family man.

3) Do you think that Dorrigo’s love for and relationship with Amy was the “beating heart of the novel” or overdone and unnecessary in light of the other major themes in the novel?

Lara: good question. There were times I felt it was a bit much, but in the end, (maybe I'm a sucker for that stuff), I thought it added to the novel. I do believe in love of that kind and for Dorrigo that was his heart, so in many ways, why shouldn't it be central. I also don't think it took away from many of the other important themes of the book.

Rachel: It was in no way the 'beating heart of the novel' - that belonged unquestionably to the men on the railway - but I felt Dorrigo and Amy's relationship was still a valid part of the novel. It provided some romance in the light of such depravity and violence and it also gave us insight into the vulnerable and genuine side of Dorrigo before he was changed irrevocably by the war. There's was a story of unfulfilled potential and possibilities that must have been played out a hundred times over as a result of the war.

Mel: The relationship was not the 'beating heart of the novel' for me either. While I was interested in their love story I was slightly dismayed when they bumped into each other in Sydney. I actually thought that Amy had died in the fire - killed herself as she thought Dorrigo dead. This I thought would have been a satisfying 'star-crossed lover' end to Amy. I mentioned above I would have been more interested in more time being spent learning more about the pre war life of Major Nakamura, who was an absolute fascinating character.

Jane: Defs not the beating heart. Yes, I agree with Mel. Major Nakamura was FASCINATING and I would have preferred to read more about him.

Lynne: No, not the beating heart for me, but I am always scathing of romantic sub-plots. I did like the descriptions of the time that he spent in Adelaide with her. The heat, the sound of the ocean, drinking beer on the shady verandah; all very evocative and I could picture it all so easily. I understand that Dorrigo needed some light at the end of the tunnel, so his love for Amy gave him something to live for while in the camp. I'm not so sure about the double-cross where Ella lied in her letter that Amy was dead, and the Uncle told Amy that Dorrigo was dead too. My husband's theory is that Amy planned the explosion that killed Keith. How did I miss that!?

Sharyn: Also not the beating heart for me. In fact, I thought the main weakness with the book was the depiction of Dorrigo's relationship with Amy, which was a bit superficial and distracted from the overall powerful nature of the book, even though it did provide some much needed light relief and was a counterpoint to the grim experience of the POWs.

4) What scene from the book has lingered most vividly with you and why?

Mel: The scene at the fish and chop shop after the war. The scenario of men returning home and trying to honor mates who they only knew in the context of war must have been played out countless times all around the world. I found it very sad and poignant and just so lovely how the fish and chip shop owner treated them.

Lara: I also loved that scene, Mel. It was fantastic when Bigelow spontaneously wound up and broke the water in the tank and then I was so impressed with the reaction of the old Greek and how in the end it truly was a healing event for all involved. Other scenes that stood out for me: Darky's beating and eventual death, first meeting Amy, the surgery to save Jack Rainbow, Nakamura talking to the former surgical intern after the war, the fire with Ella & the kids, Bigelow's daughter putting the trumpet in the garage sale, the list goes on....it is a powerful b (Lara I'm so sorry my computer just went crazy and started deleting my words and yours and I can't remember how you finished this line - Rachel)

Rachel: There are so many scenes that will linger with me forever more. I am still haunted by the image of the human vivisections - actually disturbed and obsessed with the idea that any human could justify those sort of actions for a 'greater good'. I am actually going to refer to your earlier point about the Korean guard Mel. On the one hand, Flanagan is raising the issue of scapegoating and of the guard being as much a victim of circumstance and his own victims but on the other, Flanagan very cleverly includes the scene of the Korean guard reflecting on his senseless murdering of the dog. For me that raises an important issue about war giving licence to psychopaths and sadists to do what they will and be able to justify away their actions.

Lynne: Oh so many scenes live VIVIDLY in my head, most of them from the POW camp. The monsoonal rain pounding down relentlessly and the almost-naked men slipping and sliding through the camp. The punch to the head of Darky that disoriented him on that fateful day, just because his blanket was facing the wrong way. The beating, of course. The spurting blood during the surgery. The eggshell on the penis. All burnt into my memory - for better or worse !! And to Rachel - you are so right. The cycle of violence continues to be used as an excuse for pure evil to emerge in people. I was watching 4 Corners the other night and they profiled some guys from Western Sydney that have gone to Syria to fight for ISIS. They are photographing themselves holding severed heads and you wonder how a kid from here could go there and do that, happily.?!?

Sharyn: Yes, the scenes from the POW camp stand out for me as well: most vividly Jack Rainbow's operation because you could tell how much Dorrigo needed Jack to survive for his own sanity as much as anything else. I was horrified to learn about the vivisections. Given the violence depicted in the camps, it is interesting how some reviewers have made the point that the violence was actually tame by today's standards, referring to water boarding and beheadings etc.

5) The Narrow Road to the Deep North is in part a novel about memory. How does the book explore different notions of memory?

Lynne: there are things you want to forget, but can't (the horrors of war) and things you want to remember, but can't (the face of your sweetheart). These men carry memories capable of crushing them, and to their credit, they look for the positives to help them forward.

6) In a confronting, often savage novel, there are many moments of humour. What does humour say about humanity?

Mel: I have always though that humor is the way that Australians get through tough times. Humour allows us to connect with a time that was not so hard/ difficult/ unbearable.

Lara: I think humor is the only way you can get through such horrific situations as they went through. Nothing is so bad that you can't find the absurdity in it or bond together and get stronger through shared humour. I also thought that it was interesting and right that humanity, if not humour, was also shown on the Japanese side as well. I appreciated that Flanagan tried to round out the book and give that very different perspective.

Sharyn: My favourite line was when one of the POWs asked the other if he still believed in God and the POW said: "Dunno. It's the human beings I am starting to wonder about." That response was so dry, laconic and cut straight to the bone that it really encapsulated Aussie humour for me.

7) Was Dorrigo freer in the POW camp than he was when he got home?

Mel: An excellent question (thanks Lynne). Yes, in so many ways he was freer in the POW camp. To start with he was free of his complex relationship with women, and he was free from the expectations that society placed on him. They must be a certain type of freedom to living each moment on the knife edge of loosing your life.

Lara: I believe so too. He knew what he had to do (survive and protect his men as much as possible) and I think that type of focus does make one freer in many ways. He felt he was "pretending" to be the hero they needed to a certain extent, but he knew what he had to do and he did everything he could to make it happen. I think if he had found Amy after the war, he would have potentially been freer - i.e. I still think he would have always had issues, but that whole aspect of his life would have been so different.

Jane: Not freer so much, but perhaps there is a real brotherhood that forms in those situations that cannot be replicated in any other situation in life.

Lynne: I think he was freer in the camp. Life after the war seemed to constrict him, especially the way his legend grew.

Sharyn: Yes, Dorrigo had a sense of purpose in the camp and lost that when the war was over.

8) How do you think the scenes set in Japan post WW2 were handled and how did they add to the overall narrative?

Mel: The scenes back in Japan for me were some of the most interesting, probably because I was not expecting them. Trying to imagine a post-atomic world is truly like imagining science-fiction.

Lynne: I agree Mel. It was a welcome surprise to see what happened in Japan after the war. We studied WW2 and Hiroshima while at uni but we never discussed the Japanese soldiers - only the victims of the bomb, or the Americans that inflicted the damage. I thought Nakamura's story was a fabulous addition to the book which got a bit blokey and a bit too Aussie for me at times. Japan's history of isolation and their belief that their Emperor was descended from god truly skewed their beliefs. They were brainwashed and this was evident in their attitudes to the railway and the need to honour the Emperor and die for their country. So very accurate. I also loved the Korean guard's story. His bitterness was palpable. The descriptions of his last days and his last moments before his execution were gripping. It illuminated a side of the story for me.

Mel: I was also fascinated and had no idea about the fact that many Japanese soldiers were kept hooked on drugs by the army. Makes sense. Cheaper probably than feeding them and being wired on drugs would allow them to keep a barrier between themselves and the atrocities that they were perpetrating.

Sharyn: I wanted to pick up on Lynne's comment about the blokey depictions of the POWs. Some of them were quite stereotypical Australian characters - even the nicknames were so Australian (Rooster, Sheepdog etc). While reading the book, I kept wondering how non-Australian readers would receive these characters and although the book is so magnificent I guess I am a bit surprised that it has had such international success. Like many of you said, I think the fact that Flanagan has told the story from the perspective of the Japanese soldiers and addressed the issues of survivor's guilt and retribution for war crimes gave the story greater depth and richness and probably made it more relevant from a global perspective.

9) Were you surprised by Dorrigo’s commitment to saving his family from the fire at the end of the novel, given his apparent apathy towards them?

Lara: Actually, I wasn't surprised and I thought it struck a very real chord. He and Ella had a respect and a history and despite his disconnection from his family, they were still his family. It made me really think about so many marriages that perhaps have lost their luster (if they once had it) but where through the bonds of everyday living and raising a family, there is affection there and caring....just not what you hope to have when you go into it. Even finding out about her treachery so long ago and seeing Amy can't change that. I also wonder how that type of relationship relates to the author's own father/family if at all.

Lynne: Oh I found it all a bit melodramatic; on the same day to find out Darky was his cousin, walk past Amy on the bridge, then fly to Hobart and into a raging bushfire. Anyway, after reading Lara's assessment, I am changing my opinion (Thanks Lara, thats why I love book club). Initially, I thought it was a stretch for Dorrigo to go to such lengths to save his family. But I had not really thought enough about the bond that forms through living in a marriage after surviving a war, producing 3 children and building some kind of life (even with it's imperfections). How could you not attempt to save your family? What else was he living for? Well done Dorrigo - makes me love you more.

10) Is there anything else you would like to say or ask about the novel?

Mel - Flanagan has written the book more or less about his own father's experiences as a POW. His father died the day Flanagan finished writing. Maybe he knew that he was going to live on in his son's book and it was time to let go....

Mel - If this is the first Flanagan book you have read can I really suggest that you read Wanting. Amazing writing and story line. I also really like 'The Accidental Terrorist'. Although it is a post 9/11 book current events relating to ISIS and the way the government and media are screaming terrorism at every turn makes it continually relevant.

Lara: This was my first Flanagan book. I thought how he wove the poetry throughout, developed the different characters and finally brought their stories to resolution at the end was exceptional. I actually appreciate it even more now that I've finished it. I'm also pleased to have been exposed to the quality and calibre of this book before it won the Booker (and even before it was in print in the US - I looked for it when I was back this summer). I learned something while reading it and felt even more. Great choice.

Rachel: Amazing choice of book, so glad to have read it if glad is an appropriate word. Conrad's 'Heart of Darkness' lives on. (And hate to sound all teacher-y but can't wait till this comes up on a literature set list and am already highlighting key passages to discuss with my Theory of Knowledge group!)

Lynne: I have read "Gould's Book of Fish" and did not understand any of it! Then I read The Unknown Terrorist and thought the whole thing could have been short-circuited with a quick chat to the relevant authorities.. Anyway, The Narrow Road jumped up and caught me from the first pages. I read some reviews after he won The Booker Prize and I could agree with so much of the praise. All of it phrased in much better language than I could produce tonight. This book will stay with me for a long time. For better or worse. Like Lara, I feel like I can appreciate it more now that I have spent 4 weeks away from it. I have honestly struggled to write about such a sensitive subject without gushing, but this book deserves some gushing, just not from me. Like Michelle I wonder if I am a reader, not a writer. But Michelle - I want to hear what you thought of the book - even if you don't answer all the questions - just give us a little something. x

Mel: "thought the whole thing could have been short-circuited with a quick chat to the relevant authorities" - Ha! Love it Lynne! And yes Michelle - I am waiting to hear from you!

Michelle: Sorry, here is my little something right at the end! You have all answered the questions so beautifully and spot on, it has been really fascinating to read your comments. I'd give it a 10/10, it's a very deserving winner. I have to say I found the bushfire and romantic subplots all completely relevant - as a study of Dorrigo's character they also outlined that whilst being a POW was a hugely impactful part of his life, there were yet more defining events that happened to him. I'm glad the book didn't just start and end with the events on the railway. I know some of you have said the same thing, along the lines that reading the book was an 'experience'. Going back to the railway every night made the events in my day just seem so paltry and insignificant. Jane, I'm so sorry to hear about your Grandfather, no doubt his experience has affected you and your family - I did wonder how Dorrigo's children felt about him. Flanagan's own father dying on the day he finished writing is one of those truth-stranger-than-fiction endings, if that had been part of a book plot I think I would have judged it as a contrived 'deus ex machina'! Whilst reading the parts about the railway camp, I couldn't help but think about a photo of my husband and I, standing on the track, SMILING, and feeling deeply ashamed. Of course I know that we were only smiling because someone took our photo and that we were respectful at the memorial, but still, it shows that we are happy, relaxed and on holiday and have no deep understanding of the horrors that took place. Which I guess is ultimately what they were fighting for - their children's children's freedom, but I still feel guilty that those men and their families sacrificed so much and we blithely go about our lives. Although I always remember coming away from that museum with the sad knowledge that whilst there were memorials to commemorate the POWs, there was virtually no acknowledgement of the far greater number of Asian civilians who died there. I uploaded the 'smiling' photo but couldn't post it because I am so unhappy about it. Instead here is a photo of the railway cutting that I took. So sorry to end on a complete downer, but, hey, this book was HEAVY.

Jane: Beautiful words, Michelle. xxx