Book+8+-+Mornings+in+Jenin

**Discussion Dates:** Friday 3rd May to Friday 10th May


1. What would you rate this book out of 10 and why?

GENEVIEVE: OK, I will start! I give this book 6/10. It took me ages to get into it but then the second half I did enjoy more and read much more quickly. It was fascinating and horrifying to read about life in a refugee camp and what life is like for the Palestinian people, which I had often wondered about but had not read much about. But in other ways I found the book a bit annoying with its chopping and changing and co-incidences. However I thought overall it was quite well written.

SHARYN: I loved this book (9/10). My favourite book club book to date! I love historical fiction that is done well. I particularly enjoyed getting a different perspective about the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. I felt like I learnt a lot and the book challenged my preconceptions about the Palestinian cause (more about that in question 15), but at the same time it was enjoyable as a work of fiction. The writing was very evocative, beautiful and poetic. I think it was important to the story for the book to cover many generations of the same family, but at the same time this was a bit clumsy at times given that Amal was the central protagonist. I agree with Gen that the chopping and changing of characters and time periods was a bit confusing at times. I felt quite emotional at the end of the book and it reinforced to me the notion that family is the most important thing.

MEL: 6/10. This book was always going to face an uphill battle as I read it on the back of devouring Hilary Mantel’s Bring Up the Bodies in less than 3 days. The narrative of Mornings in Jenin is chaotic, Abulhawa crams too much in, and while I enjoyed some of her prose other sections were terribly naff. However, I cannot give the book less than 5/10 as it raised my awareness of a conflict that I have grown up knowing about but haven’t spent a lot of time thinking about. I have always felt sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people but never really learnt a lot about their struggles. I believe that Abulhawa’s main purpose for writing the book was to raise awareness, and she has done that with me.

LYNNE: OK, the Loreal //Excellence// "Golden Brown" hair colour has just been applied which gives me 30 minutes to leave my thoughts before I rinse myself into perfection. My rating for this book....4/10. Sorry team. A bit too much like a soap opera for me. As for Bring up the Bodies, after finishing it the first time I swung back to page 1 and started again because I was unable to let that world go! A book like Mornings in Jenin is never going to follow that one well. I had just finished In My Skin (by Kate Holden) before this reading this book and it was a world apart in terms of the quality of the writing. Kate Holden took me to places I never dreamed of and made me TOTALLY believe that if I were in her shoes I would have become a heroin addict too - a discussion for another day perhaps - and an important one, because In My Skin demonstrates how easily a clever young girl can find herself out of her depth. Compulsory reading for us fledgling parents.

Lucy: 7/10 I enjoyed this book a lot. I thought she wrote clearly and simply about horrific circumstances. Like Sharyn I felt it taught me a lot about something I know embarrassingly little.

Carissa: 7/10. The pictures of the rural life, traditions, scenery and activities of the people of Ein Hod were vivid and beautiful. Those in the camp at Jenin were equally vivid, but horrific, whilst also showing how the people continued to be a community. The international context of the story was dealt with clearly, but without being laboured - Mrs Perstein lost her entire family in the gas chambers. However, she teaches Hassan to read and write English. I think Jolanta, too, lost her family through the Holocaust. Amal's existence as Amy in America is depicted clearly, but without overdoing it. The way the author uses foreboding helps to keep the reader's attention, without being heavy-handed. However, there is a total absence of humour.

Lara: 7+/10 - While I agree that some of the coincidences and the choppy narrative weren't always reflective of a great work, I have to say I really enjoyed reading this book. Based on the above, I also want to get into Bring Up the Bodies, but that's another discussion. I got into the book right away and for me the key thing was getting some insight into the Palestinian side of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Growing up in America, there was (and is) such a major bias to the Israeli side, that I appreciated how this book raised my awareness of the Palestinian perspective. I have since done some more research into the conflict and I think that is one of the best things about this book and its choice for the book club. I also got into the book emotionally and actually gave up a few hours of precious sleep (4m old baby in the house) to finish it one night.

2. Mornings in Jenin opens with a prelude set in Jenin in 2002, as Amal faces an Israeli soldier’s gun. How does this prelude set the scene for the novel to come? Why do you think the author wanted the reader to know in the prelude that the main character was“an American citizen”?

SHARYN: The prelude helped the reader to identify that Amal was the central protagonist in the story, notwithstanding that the novel is about four generations of the one family and that Amal doesn't appear in the novel for some time. The prelude was consistent with the author's tendency to forewarn the reader what would happen to a character in the future. This initially struck me as spoiling the story, but upon reflection I thought this was appropriate for a work of historical fiction. I am not sure why the author wanted us to know that Amal was an American citizen. Perhaps it was to let the reader know that despite all the hardship and tragedy that the family would suffer over the generations, at least one family member would find refuge in a safe country. Or perhaps it was designed so that the reader (who is more likely to be Western) could relate to at least one character in the book.

MEL: Well, even though we don’t meet Amal for the first quarter of the book we know that she is probably going to be the main protagonist, and we know that she left Palestine at some point. I’m not sure of the importance of the reader knowing that she was an American citizen. An American citizen maybe, but in every other way a Palestinian.

LYNNE: Honestly, I completely forgot what happened in the prelude by the time it got to that precise moment in the book. The prelude went in one ear and out the other.

Lucy: I didn't really take in the American Citizen bit but I like preludes.

Carissa: This prepares us for the violence that follows. I think that the significance of the American citizen is that America is the ally and supporter of Isreal and so one feels that Amal may not be in danger, after all. Also, it is possible that the reader is being invited to reflect on the blurredness of the boundaries of enmity.

**3.** Fatima says to Amal “Amal, I believe that Amercians do not love as we do. It is not for any inherent deficiency or superiority in them. They live in safe, shallow parts that rarely push human emotions into the depths that we dwell”. Discuss the romantic relationships in the novel.

SHARYN: There were a range of different romantic relationships in the novel and I don't think that the statement applies equally for all the relationships depicted. For example, Yeyha and Basima did not appear to have a particularly passionate relationship. Perhaps this was because they didn't grow up during a time or conflict or civil war or perhaps it was just a reflection of their personalities or age. Hasan and Dalia's relationship was strong and loving. Even though Dalia would initially have preferred to marry Darweesh, Dalia quickly grew to love Hasan and her love was no doubt influenced by the conflict going on around them and the fact that Hasan was such a source of strength and protection at a difficult time. The most passionate relationships were the relationships between Youself and Fatima and between Amal and Majid. These relationships were formed at a time when the Palestinian/Israeli conflict was at its peak and and were no doubt a reflection of the conflict and tragedies that surrounded the characters. They were extremely passionate, fierce, honest and beautiful relationships. I have no doubt that if you live amongst so much tragedy that it makes you value your relationship so much more and fight for what you have and not let petty things get in the way.

MEL: The romantic relationships in the novel did not ring true to me, and on reflection annoyed me considerably. They were all just too perfect and too pure. The main romances were between Dalia and Hasan, Youssef and Fatima and Amal and Majid. They were just all SO in love. Maybe I am just old and married and jaded but the way these romances were described were just not realistic. They were more a mix of Jane Austen with some sexy passages thrown in that just made me cringe. I guess they were written this way to highlight the words of Fatima above, but I fail to believe that living in fear in a war zone would make a relationship perfect! Sharyn - I wrote these thoughts down after I first read the book and now I read what you have said and I love your romantic ideals. I wish that your first thoughts were my first thoughts!

LYNNE: Mel's right, "romance" was a feature of the modern Palestinian relationships in this book which made me believe Fatima's statement a little more. The previous generations were no more (or less) passionate than your average American, but I'm not a fan of sweeping generalisations like this one.

Lucy: I think she has a point about us living in 'safe, shallow parts'. I am assuming none of us has lived through a war and so although we all have loved ones we have never felt that desperate panic that must come with not knowing how much longer you have with someone. I know that just thinking about something happening to or someone hurting my children makes my heart scrunch tight (not sure how else to describe the feeling) and I can not even begin to imagine what it would be like to be afraid to let them go out to play or wondering whether they will make it home safely from school today, or indeed living through that fear becoming a reality. I am sure those relationships still have their petty grievances but perhaps not so much time is spent on them when it feels like you are a tiny unit against the rest of the world. Also, I think that if Ian (my husband) was in danger my feelings for him would intensify. I am not saying I would love him differently just that I can imagine fear would make every emotion feel stronger.

Carissa: I think the author is trying to show how romantic relationships are intensified by unpredictability and the evidence of death, destruction and permanent separation. The romantic relationships in the novel are shown to have an intensity that does not include any light-heartedness, but the reader is made to understand that these are recorded as memories of Amal's, in the face of stard tragedy. The relatively unemotional relationsip between Yehya and Basima and the carefree relationship between young Dallia and Darweesh are in contrast to the relationships forged after the atrocities on Palestinians begin.

**4.** What is the writers purpose in including the friendship between Hasan and Ari Perlstein?

MEL: It was to show that the two cultures/ religions can have as much in common as what divides them, and that the hate does not need to be there. However this friendship was only a small section of the book, thrown in like an aside. To me it just added to the chaos of the narrative rather than adding anything really powerful to the overall message.

SHARYN: I agree, Mel. It also demonstrated how it wasn't uncommon for people of the two cultures/religions to be friends before 1948, but that things changed after the establishment of the Jewish state.

LYNNE: A bit of a token really. Just an example of the harmony that had existed before the invasion.

Carissa: This relationship shows that national enmity can be overcome.

Lara: I actually thought that this connection would be woven in more later in the book and I think it could have been a more powerful part of the story. I agree that it was to show that friendships across cultures in the end are friendships amongst people who have similar desires, struggles and challenges. The fact that Ari's mother (and so many other Zionists including David's mother) was a holocaust survivor and yet the Israeli actions inflict such suffering on another culture is a key irony. I thought it at showed some base respect for the Jews and their journey in the midst of the conflict.

**5.** In Jenin, the early morning “was a time and place where the hope of returning home could be renewed”. What is the significance of the title Mornings in Jenin?

MEL: The main significance for me was that this was the time that Amal spent with her father who she loved and adored. After everything she went through, it was these mornings with her father than she returned to time and time again in her mind.

LYNNE: This was a lovely sentiment really, in a war torn place I'm sure the peaceful early morning was a thing of rare beauty, and to have a father to share it with was a real luxury. Sad that it was destroyed so violently and sad that Amal could did not try to re-create that time/moment with her daughter. Carissa: Th title's significance becomes apparent when the book takes us to the refugee camp and we are shown that Hassan's strength of character helps to bring hope and comfort to his family.

Carissa: The title's significance becomes apparent when the characters are in the refugee camp. The interlude each morning there between Amal and her father, Hassan, shows the importance of her father's strength of character and spirit, in holding the family's morale. Since this time is the time that helps Amal to find comfort and she is the main character, the title seems appropriate and uplifting.

Lara: I quite like the title "Mornings in Jenin" for many of the reasons listed above - Amal's special time with her father, the calmness and the enduring specialness of that time for Amal throughout her life. When I was reading more about the book online, I learned that it was originally published as, "The Scar of David" and while I can understand that title too, I prefer "Mornings in Jenin".

**6.** Discuss the series of events that lead to Ismael’s new life as David. What connections can be drawn between Moshe’s kidnapping and Israel’s actions toward the Palestinian people? What wounds are healed when David discovers his real identity?

MEL: Abulhawa uses this kidnapping to express her belief that the Israeli’s had such a huge sense of entitlement over the Palestinian people and their land. That it was perfectly feasible to come into their country, move the people out of their homes, rape their women, take their children etc… The scenes where Ishmael were taken were harrowing, and I thought that the book was going to be about the life of this family and of Ishmael torn apart and their parallel lives and inevitable coming back together.

LYNNE: More soap. Heart-wrenching, but soapy. Poor David was lost between 2 worlds and turned to alcohol. Discovering his true identity and meeting part of his real family gave him a unique understanding of the damage being wrought by the Israeli occupation.

Lucy: I thought the purpose of David was to show that lines/ enemies drawn along cultural/ religious/ ethnic boundaries are often socially constructed. It is a thought I also had while reading Hare with Amber Eyes and All that I am. So often war like this is not immediate retaliation but revenge for atrocities committed in previous generations. David was taught to hate Palestinians because of how his Jewish parents had been persecuted. I'm feeling a bit frustrated because I want to put this more eloquently but am too tired to think properly. The author (I can't even remember her name) talks about it in a line that goes something like - these atrocities were being committed against the Palestinians because of what Hitler did to the Jews. I thought David contrasted well with Ari Perlstein to illustrate how our nurture can be so formative in what we then feel are inherited beliefs.

Carissa: The kidnapping shows ruthlessness, but Moshe is not unmoved by the screams of Dallia. However, he is desperate to brighten the despairing life of his heart-broken and bereft wife. He displays the same arrogance that Israel displays in its treatment of the Palestiians, whose country they have come to share.

**7.** Haj Salem tells Amal, “We’re all born with the greatest treasures we’ll ever have in life. One of those treasures is your mind, another is your heart”. How does Haj Salem’s speech influence Amal’s decision to go to school in Jerusalem? Explain why Amal considers his words “the greatest wisdom ever imparted to me by another human being”.

LYNNE: my scalp is stinging a little bit.....

Lucy: my scalp is too but more from trying to engage my brain than anything else

Lara: Does the fact that my baby's scalp is covered in chicken pox count? K....I remember highlighting this quote in the book. Someone needed to get through to Amal to give her the courage to take the scholarship. Interestingly, while this helped, it was only when her uncle put the opportunity in the context of her father's wishes that she agreed to go. Haj Salem is the font of elderly wisdom and the continuity between past and present - I think Amal only really appreciates that later in life as is so often true. I liked the quote a few sentences after this one though even more, "How you use the gifts of Allah to help yourself and humanity is ultimately how you honor him". It is a call to action, and Amal's required action at this point is to further her education and opportunities outside of the refugee camp.


 * 8. ** Amal and Yousef both lose the people they love most in the attacks on Lebanon in 1982. How do brother and sister react differently to their tragedies, and why? How does this tragedy drive them further apart, instead of closer in their grief? How do you think Amal’s reaction might have been different had she not been pregnant?

MEL: Amal closes herself off so that the anger won’t destroy her. We are allowed to believe that Yousef allowed the anger to kill him (and force his hand to kill others) but in the end they actually handled their grief in ways that were not too dissimilar.

LYNNE: I got the impression that in this patriarchal society it was Yousef's role to be aggressive and to react with Anger, and it was Amal's lot to suffer her grief quietly/inwardly. They react the way those around them react, with a stoicism that festers into a terrible bitterness.

Lucy: I agree with Lynne and Mel. Initially different but ultimately the same huge empty sadness.

Carissa: Amal copes with these tragic losses by burying her feelings, while Yousef feels a responsibility to fight back. They rarely communicate with each other and do not seem to seek to comfort each other at all. I did not feel that her pregnancy had an impact on her reactions. She seemed detached from the pregnancy.


 * 9. ** Amal associates Dalia’s stoic behavior with a line of her mother’s advice: “Whatever you feel, keep it inside” . When does Amal follow Dalia’s example, and when does she break from it?

MEL: Amal only followed Dalia’s advice after the death of Majid in how she raised Sara, and to an extent her relationship with David/Ishmael. Prior to that Amal was not like her mother in terms of developing and displaying her emotional attachment to people, i.e. her father, brother, Huda, jack O’Malley friends at the convent.

Lynne: Agree with Mel. I thought Dalia was a pretty disappointing role model. I'll cut her some slack for enduring the horrors that she did, but I just thought she could have clung a little tighter to her surviving children.

Lucy: I thought both mother/ daughter relationships were heartbreaking. There were times when I wanted to scream reading about how Amal was with Sara. A good lesson to us mothers.

Carissa: Amal only abandoned her mother's advice when she and Sara were in the refugee camp in Jenin, surrounded by the devastation of the latest Isreali raid on it and the dead bodies of those with whom Amal had grown up. She is facing permanent separation from her daughter and wants her daughter to understand her background.


 * 10. ** Consider the Israeli characters within Mornings in Jenin: Ari Perlstein, Moshe, Jolanta, and David’s sons. How do their experiences compare to the experiences of the Abulheja family? What do these Israeli voices add to the novel?

LYNNE: I think these characters were a feeble attempt to tell the story from the other side. Obviously their lives were difficult but never as tough as those that were displaced.

Lucy: I agree and having given the book a 7 as I go through these questions I am beginning to feel cheated that so many incredibly important issues, political, cultural and emotional were not dealt with in enough depth.

Carissa: Ari, Moshe and Jolanta live where the events of the book are unfolding and they show varying degrees of conscience about the Israelis' treatment of the Palestinians. David's sons are Americans and are detached from the situation.


 * 11. ** Do you think that the book is overly political, or do you think that the political documentary style aspect of the book is one of its strengths?

MEL: I found the documentary aspects of the book (when she directly quoted from newspapers/ reports etc..) a bit disconcerting and very harrowing. It seemed like she could not think of other ways to write the atrocities and that it would be almost inappropriate to the memory of the dead if she had have tried to. The fact that the book was driven by a political purpose, for the voice of the Palestinian people both dragged down the narrative (because it felt that Abulhawa was too close to the action and couldn’t remove herself) and yet also what saved the book and made it important for me to read on.

SHARYN: I think the author used the documentary style aspect of the book to add credibility to her political message. However, I am not sure it had the desired effect because I kept on wondering whether this was an objective presentation of the facts or whether it was highly selective.

LYNNE: It must be hard to write about the Arab/Israeli conflict without being political. I thought the style was a bit confused and I kept wanting it to be more truthful and less dramatised.

Lucy: It definitely opened my eyes to things I had not know before and made me think about the conflict with more purpose but I agree with Sharyn that often I was left not knowing what was fact and what not.

Carissa: The style enhances our understanding of the characters and puts their activities into a believable context.

Lara: I appreciated the documentary aspects because while I was into the storyline, the juxtaposition of actual events gave it a weight and made me even more interested to learn more. I think it also highlights some of the media bias related to the conflict.


 * 12. ** In their final conversations, as tanks roll through Jenin, Amal explains many of her hardships to her daughter, Sara. Why did Amal grieve “three thousand times” on September 11th? How was Amal’s experience similar and different from the widows’ of 9/11?

MEL: The widows of 9/11 went through the same pain as Amal, and yet their pain was understood and they were comforted by their remaining family, their country and indeed the whole western world. Amal felt affronted as it reminded her of what she had lost and also that she had not been allowed to grieve properly and that no one in her adopted country of the US really cared or was sympathetic to what she went through when her husband died.

SHARYN: Good answer Mel ! Hadn't thought of it like that.

Lucy: I felt as Mel did but also that it was trying to show how Amal was perhaps bigger hearted than the Americans because she could grieve with them even though the attacks were carried out by 'her people'.

Carissa: I do not know how many Palestinians had been massacred in Palestine by 9/11, but wonder whether Amal was grieving for all of them, or whether she was grieving for them and for those affected by 9/11.

Lara: I read it as she was grieving for each of the nearly 3000 people who died as a result of the attacks on Sept 11. I think she is in an unique position to grieve for each of the deaths due to terrorist attacks, but also I think she feels sorrow that the Islamic extremists have turned on the US and that it is a never-ending cycle of violence.


 * 13. ** Nearly all of the characters in this book are transformed in one way or another by personal and international events. How are the transformations of Moshe, Dalia, Amal, and Yousef similar and how are they different? Of them, who undergoes the most dramatic change?

LYNNE: I think I need to rinse this stuff off my head. It is inhibiting my ability to answer these difficult questions.

Carissa: I do not see many similarities in the transformations, except that, once it turns out that Yousef was not a suicide bomber, I wonder whether he and Moshe both become gentler and more compassionate. Dalia is the most transformed from the sparkling,fiesty, carefree girl to the pathetic, demented, lifeless woman.


 * 14. ** Why does the novel end with words from Yousef, who lives in exile? What mood does Yousef’s perspective create at the end of the book? Is it a surprise to learn that Yousef had not driven the bomb truck into the U.S. embassy in 1983? Considering that the PLO fighters who were exiled to Tunis in 1982 lost their families in the Sabra and Shatila carnage and none chose to respond with violence, why do you think the author chose this ending?

MEL: I was surprised to find that he was still alive and living in exile, Abulhawa gave us every reason to believe he was the suicide bomber. She used this as a way of leaving us with the message that (in her onion) Palestinians will rise above their enemy, the Israeli’s. She did herself a disservice in a way by painting the Palestinians and the PLO especially as always being the hapless victims.

SHARYN: I was a bit disappointed about the ending because it would have presented a more balanced view of things had Yousef been the suicide bomber. However, given the author's stated purpose of highlighting the Palestinian cause, it is completely understandable that she should let Yousef to take the moral high ground. Yousef's perspective also served as a reminder that the book was just as much, if not more, about family than it was about religion and conflict. He wanted to exact revenge, but didn't want to cheapen his love for his wife, ruin the family name or leave his sister alone in doing so.

LYNNE: Quite a romantic ending I thought - good old Yousef did not go completely loco and blow up an embassy! Surprise! I think it is designed to leave a message of hope - that these people that have been brutalised for so long can be 'good' and resist the temptation to keep seeking revenge.

Lucy: Let's hope that what you've all said above is right and that the cycle of teaching children to hate whole groups of people does not continue.

Carissa: Yousef's words show us that not all Palestinians react with violence and revenge. He is motivated by the sense of honour and desire for peace that his father showed. This may be what the author wants to reflect. Also, the fact that Yousef, though in exile, living in poverty and servitude, can hold on to love for his family and a sense of honour gives hope.

Lara: The romantic in me was relieved that it wasn't him and I felt that it did give a sense of hope. However, there was part of me that quite easily believed he had turned to violence and unfortunately I think this turn happens more often than not when faced with poverty and a lack of opportunities.


 * 15. ** If at all, how has this story changed how you view the Palestinian-Israeli conflict? Did you learn things that surprised you?

MEL: As I said above I had always felt sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians, but also understood the desire/need for the creation of a Jewish state. I guess the sheer brutality of what one group of people will do to another group of people, especially to innocent non-combatants, was brought home to me – especially in the bombings and killings in Lebanon. Truly shocking and grotesque.

SHARYN: The book has changed how I view the conflict. I grew up reading a lot of books about the Holocaust, read a lot of books by Jewish authors and had a lot of Jewish friends at University and so I was always sympathetic to the plight of the Jews. I am embarrassed to say that I never really thought that much about the Palestinian cause as I was influenced by high profile incidents of Palestinian terrorism (e.g. Munich massacre) and what I read in the Western media, which I think is very pro-Jewish. This book has made me want to read more about the conflict - particularly to get more balanced and objective accounts (if there is such a thing). I was shocked and surprised by the nature of the violence portrayed in the book. It gave me a greater insight into why people commit acts of terrorism, even though it can't obviously be condoned.

LYNNE: It hasn't changed my view but it was a timely reminder of how things began. My history seems to begin in the 80's on this subject and I have so many memories of Arafat on TV spruiking the Palestinian cause. For some reason my father was always incredibly sympathetic towards him and I think I grew up with a strange bias for these mad Arabs. Like Sharyn, I now want to read more about some of the actual events that occurred, not more fictionalised accounts. I might seek out some biographies at the library.

Lucy: I am not sure I do understand the need for a Jewish state. I can see the desire but not the necessity. Particularly when it is realised in this kind of way. I do not know enough about it but I do find it shocking that Isreal seems to get away with so much without international condemnation or reaction and that in general the Palestinians are described as the terrorists.

Carissa: I learned a lot from this story, both about the situation in Israel, expressed from a viewpoint not often published in the West, and about intense human suffering and ways people find for surviving. "Terrorists" may not be a species apart. 16. Is there anything else about Mornings in Jenin that you would like to add or ask that has not been covered in the questions above?

Carissa: Yesterday, we were visited by an 85 year-old Brit, who had been in the British army in the Second World War, at the end of which, he was stationed in Palestine from 1945 to 1949, waiting for his turn to be demobilised and allowed to return home. He lived in Jenin during that time. He was one of 100,000 British troops dumped in Palestine from neighbouring countries, where there had been fighting during World War II...That constituted one British soldier to every 12 inhabitants of Palestine. This old man had a disfigured face from an attack by an Israeli soldier in 1946. He said. the Israelis were systematically targeting British soldiers, with a plan to be rid of the British presence, in order to be able to get on with ridding the new State of Palestinians

Lara: Carissa - really interesting. Like I said at the top, I am really glad to have read this book and gotten a window into the conflict from a different perspective. It has definitely made me want to learn more (always worth a lot) and it also has made me think more deeply about the conflict especially from the Palestinian side. Personally, I think it has been too easy to sit back and question why they can't more easily get to a two-state solution and end the conflict. While I continue to think that's probably the right thing to do now, I want to delve deeper underneath this simplicity. Thanks for suggesting the book - it caused some good discussion in the end.