Book+4+-+The+Other+Hand


 * Discussion Dates: ** Friday 28th September to Friday 5th October



Michelle: Can I kick off the 'discussion' and say that books like this are the reason I love bookclubs? I would never have chosen to read this, but I'm so glad I did.

Lucy- I wrote a whole load of answers yesterday which do not seem to have saved, most annoying as I am in Kenya at the moment with very little internet connection. However, I will try to remember what I wrote, or make up something else!

1. “Sad words are just another beauty. A sad story means, this storyteller is alive” (p. 9). For Little Bee and other asylum seekers, the story of their life thus far is often all they have. What happens to the characters that carry their stories with them, both physically and mentally? How much control over their own stories do the characters in the book seem to have?

Jane: Little Bee doesn't have much control over her story at all. Her fate is decided by what the government decides. CATH: I found the lack of control that Little Bee had over her life profound. But I admired that she found a way to navigate the world even when she had so little control over it.

2. Little Bee tells the reader, “We must all scars as beauty. Okay? This will be our secret. Because take it from me, a scar does not form on the dying. A scar means, I survived” (p. 9). Which characters in the story are left with physical scars? Emotional scars? Do they embrace them as beautiful? Did you feel more connected to Little Bee as a narrator after this pact?

JAIME: I really love the idea of scars being beautiful because they mean you have survived and I have repeated it to a few people since. For me this quote illustrated perfectly the difference in the lives of Australians and those people in nations where survival alone is a triumph. It makes me ashamed of how shallow the developed world can be, myself included. SHARYN: I love this passage in the book. Little Bee has emotional scars but she is a survivor and has drawn strength and wisdom from her experiences. Even though she acknowledges that she has lost all her youth and innocence, she can still see the beauty in simply being alive. CATH: I also loved this quote. I had it underlined in my book. Little Bee has seen so much death and horror in her short life but unlike others (her sister and most of her village for example) she has survived. AMY: Such an endearing statement and fundamental to LB’s ongoing survival. Andrews inability to embrace his own emotional scars eventually destroyed him.

3. Little Bee strives to learn the Queen’s English in order to survive in the detention center. How does her grasp of the language compare with Charlie’s? How does the way each of these two characters handle the English language help to characterize them?

MEL: I found Charlie's language skills or lack thereof really annoying. The four year olds (and majority of three year olds) that I know are very articulate people, with far better sentence construction than Charlie's. I felt slightly bad about my annoyance when I read the acknowledgments and saw that Cleave had, for the most part, based Charlie on his own son. Jane: I too was annoyed with Charlie's language. In fact, I was annoyed with much of the dialogue in the book. A lot of the time it felt contrived and unnatural and interrupted the flow of the story. SHARYN: Little Bee's grasp of the Queen's English had a point - she regarded it as a survival mechanism - but I didn't really see the point in the author depicting Charlie's language skills in the way he did. Lynne: I thought Little Bee's phrasing was utterly charming and made me like her so much at the beginning of the book. It hinted at her diligence and her intelligence - staggering in someone so young and by our standards 'underprivileged'. CATH: I also loved Little Bee's expression. As for Charlie, was his mother somewhat neglectful? She seemed much more absorbed in her own life than her son's. Perhaps his language skills (or lack thereof) were a manifestation of this. Lucy - I also found Charlie's language skills unbearable and agree with Mel that none of the people I know of his age talk like that and I would be surprised if Cleave's own son did, unless he was using language his son had used at a much earlier age in which case Charlie should also have been younger. At times I also found the way he made Little Bee talk and think a little patronising which was a shame. JAIME: I didn't find Charlie's (lack of) language skills that annoying but like Cath I assumed that his stilted expressions were perhaps a manifestation of his parents troubled relationship... AMY: I saw that both characters used their grasp (or lack thereof in Charlie's case) of the English language as a coping mechanism. I was surprised by the way Sarah handled this with Charlie and questioned her motivation for her indulgence.

4. How did it affect your reading experience to have two narrators? Did you trust one woman more than the other? Did you prefer the voice of one above the other?

GENEVIEVE: I preferred and trusted LB more as a narrator. MICHELLE: me too JAIME: I trusted both narrators, I thought Sarah was honest about her version of the truth. MEL: I trusted both of them equally Jane: I preferred Little Bee as a character, but I probably trusted what they were both saying equally. I just thought that the relationships and the development of these relationships wasn't convincing. SHARYN: I trusted both narrators. Although Little Bee was a much more sympathetic character than Sarah, I probably enjoyed Sarah's voice more because it was easier to relate to. CATH: I also trusted both narrators and I found Sarah to be very authentic. It found it interesting how the author somehow respected Sarah's dilemmas and challenges just as much as Little Bee's even though in contrast, Sarah's middle class anxieties seemed so unimportant. Lucy - I trusted both narrators and agree with Cath's comment. Although Little Bee's story was so much more horrific, Sarah, in her own self indulgent way was experiencing something she could not really deal with.

5. Of the English language Little Bee says, “Every word can defend itself. Just when you go to grab it, it can split into two separate meanings so the understanding closes on empty air” (p. 12). What do you think she means by this? Why is language so important to Little Bee?

GENEVIEVE: It gives her some sense of power and control over her life. Lynne: it was a ticket to freedom - the other option was to look good, but after her sister's fate I am sure this did not appeal. Lucy - I also think she is talking about how difficult it is to learn English. There are so many nuances and hidden meanings in many English words and not knowing these high lights your lack of 'nativeness'. I think more than control over her life this was her way of being able to stay in the UK.

6. Little Bee says of horror films, “Horror in your country is something you take a dose of to remind yourself that you are not suffering from it” (p. 45). Do you agree? Was reading this novel in any way a dose of horror for you? How did it help you reflect on the presence or lack of horror in your own life?

GENEVIEVE: I thought this was an interesting idea, that we have to invent/imagine horro through movies and books when people in many countries experience it daily MICHELLE: Yes I really thought about this when I read that line and thought it was very true. Reading this book was a little dose of horror and an eye opener for me. MEL: I can see why Little Bee would think that but every country developed or developing, democratic or autocratic has elements of horror - crime, poverty, abuse, addiction. Reading about the situation of Little Bee both in Nigeria and in detention was sad but not shocking to me as this is an issue that I do know quite a bit about. Jane: I do, on a daily basis, feel lucky for the freedom that I have in my own life and often reflect on the real suffering that people experience around the world. I think people in the developed world often live in their own self-obsessed narcissistic bubble - complaining about the queue at the supermarket, or the traffic, or the rain - we know nothing about real suffering. CATH: I take your point Mel but I really think there are degrees of horror and first world crime, poverty and addiction are not in the same league as your entire village being slaughtered or listening to your sister being raped and dismembered all the while knowing that you have absolutely no recourse to any type of protection or justice system. While it may not always help everyone in every situation, we live in a country that abides by the rule of law and when the rule of law breaks down - that is truly horrific. MEL: Hmm I did seem to suggest that the problems in the developing world are no more harsh than in certain sections of the developed world. I do not think think and I did not mean this. What I do think is that naturally Little Bee, given her set of life experiences would think that everyone in the UK leads a charmed, horror free life, which is just not the case. Lucy - Like Mel, without wanting to belittle Little Bee's horror, I feel there is horror on our own doorsteps, as our next book illustrates so well. Perhaps not with the intense fear that Little Bee's situation has but just as much horror. AMY: This was definately a thought provoking statement for me. Is child abuse for example any more or less horrific in a developing or developed country? So often child abusers in the first world are not brought to justice for one reason or another. How would an abused person in the UK feel if LB directed her statement to them? What about those who've been a POW or fought in War? I believe horror definately has degrees but I think LB's statement whilst understandable is perhaps a little short sighted. The novel was certainly a dose of horror for me as is any story of abuse.

7. Little Bee figures out the best way to kill herself in any given situation, just in case “the men come suddenly.” How do these plans help Little Bee reclaim some power? Were you disturbed by this, or were you able to find the humor in some of the scenarios she imagines?

GENEVIEVE: Yes sometimes it was funny as well as sad. MICHELLE: I didn't really find it funny although I liked the way Little Bee told her story - the light heartedness and humour helped the bleakness of it. JAIME: I found it sad but also really related to it. I would much rather choose my fate and once you know how bad things can be.... MEL: Obviously it is very sad that anyone feels that they need to access new place in this manner, but I did think that it was well handled and yes, helped Little Bee reclaim some power. I believed in it as I am sure that it is the sad but true situation for millions of women around the world. CATH: I think Little Bee was courageous and I saw only sadness in her plans to kill herself. We all want to think that we have some power over our lives, even if it is how we will kill ourselves before we get killed. AMY: I did not really find the humor in her imagined scenarios. I just felt sad and could understand her need for a get out plan to empower her enough to get on with living! SHARYN: I thought her plans were both sad and humorous but also showed how pragmatic Little Bee had become. It reminded me of a film I saw recently depicting US soldiers in Afghanistan who carry around devices to kill themselves to avoid being tortured. I agree with Jaime that I would much rather choose my fate.

8. “To have an affair, I began to realize, was a relatively minor transgression. But to really escape from Andrew, to really become myself, I had to go the whole way and fall in love” (p. 161-162). Do you agree with Sarah that an affair is a minor transgression? How did falling in love with someone else help Sarah become herself? What role did Andrew play in perpetuating Sarah’s extramarital affair?

GENEVIEVE: I did not like Lawrence and I couldn't really see what Sarah saw in him. MICHELLE: I think Sarah is deluded to pretend that it was Andrew's fault that she fell in love with someone else. JAIME: This beginning of the affair with Lawrence didn't seem plausible to me and I am not sure she was really in love with him at all. I also don't think it helped her to become herself. The relationships with both Andrew and Lawrence seemed to be disappointing and disorienting for Sarah. She acknowledged that Lawrence cared more for himself than for her saying something like "but all men are like that". MEL: I found Lawrence to be a big self absorbed pain in the arse. Like Jaime I felt suspicious about the start of their relationship. The conversation between them wasn't really believable. Up to the affair I had thought Sarah brave and interesting (cutting off a finger on a beach for a stranger was after all pretty impressive) but the affair was such a boring/mundane thing to do, and her lack of care for her son while she was busy swanning around parties and having sex with Lawrence made me feel very angry with her. Jane: I felt this whole relationship quite shallow. I didn't feel much for Sarah or Lawrence and I didn't understand why she fell for him. I don't think an affair is a minor transgression at all - but I am not married, I don't know how difficult marriage can be, I don't understand how men/women could be tempted to cheat knowing the hurt it can cause. In any case, I didn't feel sympathy for Sarah, I felt irked with her most of the time for being such a nitwit. I felt like Cleave was trying to get the reader to feel her pain, and feel empathy towards her.. but it didn't work for me. Lynne: agree - her affair was so self indulgent and to describe it as minor indicates how deluded she was. Andrew was horrified when she said it was "just sex" as if that made it OK. I found it hard to understand her motivation to embark on the affair with Lawrence because I did not learn enough about Andrew through the book. He is still largely a mystery to me pre-Nigeria. Is that deliberate? Is this a story to be told only by females about females? CATH: Lawrence was a twat. One can only imagine what he would have done on the beach in Nigeria if he were in Andrew's place. MEL: Interesting that Jane who is not married has answered part of this question that none of the rest of us who are married have - is an affair a minor transgression? Maybe the answer is just so obvious - of course it is not a minor transgression and anyone who believes in their wedding vows would think the same - that no one thought it necessary to discuss it further?? Lucy - perhaps those who do have affairs do, or have to, think of them as minor transgressions??? I agree with all the negative comments about Lawrence and I couldn't see how the relationship really worked. They did not seem right for each other, or understand each other. It felt a bit forced. AMY: I didn’t like Lawrence either and Sarah’s decision to have an affair with him and take him back into her bed on the day of Andrew’s funeral completely tainted her earlier heroic efforts. JAIME:I don't believe that an affair is a minor transgression at all but I think in this question it has been taken out of context. Sarah goes on to say that falling in love with someone else is so much bigger (from what I remember, I don't have the book on me) and perhaps relative to falling in love with someone outside of your marriage the physical act of an affair is minor.... controversial....! SHARYN: For me, an affair is a major transgression regardless of whether it involves love. However, I agree with Jaime that you need to consider it in context. There may be extreme circumstances where it could be considered a minor transgression - for example, I can imagine a situation where someone is so intoxicated that they may not be in control of what they are doing. Just don't tell my husband that as I wouldn't want him to think that he ever has an "out"....! In any event, such extreme circumstances did not arise in the book and I agree that the affair was self-indulgent and immature.

9. When Little Bee finds that Andrew has hanged himself she thinks, “Of course I must save him, whatever it costs me, because he is a human being.” And then she thinks, “Of course I must save myself, because I am a human being too” (p. 194). How do the characters in the story decide when to put themselves first and when to offer charity? Is one human life ever more valuable than another? What if one of the lives in question is your own?

GENEVIEVE:I found this scene very shocking and confronting as LB tries to help Andrew but can't, and then considering that he did not help her in Nigeria. Jane: Again, I felt this situation that Little Bee finds herself in rather contrived and unnatural and not quite believable. Lynne: when Little Bee recounted this story to Lawrence in Sarah's kitchen I initially thought she was lying. This moment planted a seed in my head that made me start to doubt the veracity of her //entire// story - as if she was manufacturing something to help her situation. I though she might be adaptable & resourceful enough to do that. CATH: I believed Little Bee entirely in everything she said. I can't say what I would do in any of these life and death situations because they are far too complex. Would I save someone else's child over my own? Would I save myself over my husband? Would I save myself over a total stranger? Would I save anyone at all? I don't know?????? MEL: I thought along the same lines Lynna Lucy - I'm not sure what I felt about it. I also did not see Sarah as someone who would cut her own finger off. Obviously for the story to work that had to happen but I wonder whether an experience like that would not have had a more profound impact on her life, slightly more than just pushing her to a minor transgression and the break down of her marriage. Would you not want to find out more about what was actually happening in Nigeria, or what had happened to Little Bee, or something? JAIME: I have naive idealistic tendencies so I wasn't surprised that Sarah cut her finger off, I was more surprised Andrew didn't. I think we would all like to believe that one human life is as valuable as another but the way we live our lives, spend our money and are affected (or not) by world events seems to contradict that belief.

10. Has the book changed your views about how asylum seekers are treated in your country?

GENEVIEVE: Not really because I was already appalled at how they are being treated MICHELLE: Was already upset about it, but now I might actually do something about it. JAIME: I am guessing we are all compassionate to the plight of asylum seekers just from the fact we are dear associates of Mel. The treatment of asylum seekers in Australia is a disgrace. MEL: I think that this book will unfortunately be preaching to the converted as the majority of the people reading it will be, like myself, the girls above and I would hazard at a guess those still to post - people already sympathetic to the plight of asylum seekers right around the world. Having read and been appalled and embarrassed by the asylum seeker situation in Australia for so long, it was interesting to read about the views and values of those in the UK. Jane: I have always been aware of the suffering and the situation of asylum seekers in my country and in other countries. So it didn't change my view as I felt deeply for them before I read the book. SHARYN: No, it didn't change my views for the same reasons that everyone else has mentioned. However, I applaud the author for tackling this issue because the more people are exposed to the plight of asylum seekers and, in particular, to personalized accounts (whether fictionalized or otherwise) of the horror that they are facing in their country of origin, this will hopefully lead to greater understanding, empathy and support in the wider community. I think that personalized accounts send a more powerful message than news items and statistics can ever hope to achieve. The book has been a bestseller in many countries and I read that Nicole Kidman has bought the rights to the movie so hopefully the message behind the book will reach an even wider audience in years to come. Lynne: yes, Mel, preaching to the converted. CATH: I agree with Sharyn that a personalised story is very powerful. I think that the author also illustrated very well, that most attitudes toward asylum seekers comes from total ignorance rather than hate. Lucy - yes, I agree that it may not reach enough people to whom this would be an eye opener and unfortunately I sometimes feel that the way it was written would mean that if it did reach more people they would just view it as another 'horror movie' to be horrified by and then forgotten.

11. The book was called "Little Bee" in some countries and "The Other Hand" in other countries - in your view, which title is more appropriate?

GENEVIEVE: I like 'The Other Hand' it seems a bit cleverer as a title. MICHELLE: Agree. And Little Bee gives the impression that it's all her story, whereas the book has two narrators. JAIME: Agree. The Other Hand is perfect. MEL: The Other Hand is most appropriate Jane: The Other Hand is better. SHARYN: I prefer The Other Hand because it refers to the defining moment in the story. Lynne: I prefer the Other Hand. Amy: The Other Hand definately.

12. What rating would you give this book out of 10 (with 10 being the highest) and why.

GENEVIEVE: I really liked this book up until the ending. 8/10 MICHELLE: 9/10 JAIME 7/10 MEL: 7.5/10 (he has a great turn of phrase but it all got a bit melodramatic in the last third of the book) Jane: 5/10. I thought the idea of the story was good, but the telling of it wasn't. It felt too melodramatic, too forced, a bit contrived. SHARYN: 8.5/10 Lynne: 7/10. I thought it had some beautiful sentiments, especially when talking about village life in Nigeria. CATH: 9/10 I absolutely LOVED this book. It goes straight to my top 10 list (which has about 50 books on it). I want everyone to read it!!!! Lucy - 6/10. I agree with Jane that the telling of it was not great. Amy: 8/10 Overall a powerful story, thought provoking and inspiring but I agree a little too melodramatic towards the end.

13. Is there anything else that you would like to say about the book that you have not been able to address in the questions above?

GENEVIEVE: I did not like the cover picture (I had the one with the tree). Also I was a bit annoyed by the lack of a blurb. MICHELLE: I loved the cover! but I had the one with the profile. Very happy i didn't get the version with the photo of a kid on a beach - so stupid to give away the story on the front cover! MEL: Cleave did write some lovely phrases. I was particularly taken with this one and wanted to share it with you: //"Everything was happiness and singing when I was a little girl. There was plenty of time for it. We did not have to hurry. We did not have electricity or fresh water or sadness either, because none of these had been connected to our village yet". (p111)// Lynne: Let's not forget, I had to read the shrinky-dink / flip-top version and it was not pleasant. You have to use your fingers to keep it open instead of resting the book against your palm and holding it open with your opposable digit (doing EXACTLY as it was designed). The pages were incredibly thin so I had to lick my finger to turn, but on reflection Sarah was more annoying than the need to lick my finger. At the same time I read Jasper Jones which I am sure half of you have already done and would love to hear some opinions. Maybe on a separate page. CATH: Mel, I love the phrase you have quoted. My experience was that the book was just full of little gems like this. I LOVED this book (Lynne - I also "lower case" loved Jasper Jones!) And yes - there is something else I would like to say - I'm absolutely loving the bookclub! SHARYN: Lynne, I also loved Jasper Jones and would happily read that for the third time if someone wanted to choose that for book club.

14. Are there any further questions that you would like to pose about the book?

A) JAIME: The scene on the beach is haunting me. Putting yourself in that situation, how would facing a similar choice impact your marriage? MEL: The scene made me think of the man who cut off his arm to save himself in the US. His story has been made into the film 127 Hours. I came out of that story a blubbering mess, as I knew that Ben has the will power to cut off his own arm but I do not. He would live and I would die. Ben and I discussed it for ages and made a list of those we know who could have done what that guy did. Interestingly there was only one female who we were 100% sure had the willpower to cut off her own arm to save herself and the rest were guys. Why is that?? So back to the beach and my marriage. I truly believe that Ben would cut off his finger for someone (especially if he thought that he was possibly saving me from death at the same time). If push came to shove and Ben didn't/couldn't cut off his finger and I did I am not sure that our marriage could survive the fallout of how much he would punish himself. And while I am in the mood for full disclosure, the only female I know for a fact who would cut off her own arm is Cath Jones. Lynne: I am a self confessed "giver-up-erer" when things are too hard, so I am not surprised Mel knows that I would not cut off my arm - I would give up, and then die. On a beach in Nigeria, I believe my husband would cut off his finger and mine as well - negating my impulse to give up and die. And oh how I love him for being both principled and brave! CATH: Mel I appreciate your faith in me but I refer you to my answer to Question 9. AMY: I agree Cath that until you’re in the situation, perhaps it’s impossible to really know....I really cannot imagine sawing through bone though!!!! I think if I had the strength to cut off my finger to save another human being and my husband couldn’t, I would struggle to maintain respect. For the record however, I have no doubt that my husband would cut off his finger before I even had the chance to contemplate it. SHARYN: I don't know whether I (or my husband) would cut off my finger or arm and I kind of like that unpredictability.

B) What did people think of the Editor's note on the first page? Clever or annoying?

SHARYN: The editor's note was annoying in the same way that it's annoying when someone tells you they have a secret/surprise, but won't tell you what it is. It raised my expectations about the book and the book fell slightly short of those expectations, even though I really enjoyed reading it. Lynne: no editors note in the flip-top version version (that I can remember) - and I don't fancy going back to check.